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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys. I installed a full Yosh. carbon fiber exhaust a couple months ago and was going to wait until I got a PC3 before I installed the K&N filter. But I had the airbox off yesterday so in went the K&N filter. The exhaust is the one seen here

The main question is am I running too lean. I have a short commute to work with only 3 miles on the freeway. I have noticed a mid-RPM flat spot now - as in when I'm rolling on the throttle quickly it hesitates. I wear full ear plugs but as I slowed when I pulled into the driveway I thought I heard some pops. I ordered a PC 3 tonight, btw. Also, I was planning on riding about 400 miles on Saturday, now I'm worried. Am I putting the bike at risk?

2nd: judging by Dynojet's website, there MAY be a map that I can start with? 102-009?

What do you guys think? Oh, lastly, I might get it dyno-tuned if I can find a shop I think is good - Phoenix, Az, btw.

Thanks!
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Yes you are running too lean,but apparently just a little.I've never used a map,working fine with manual adj. on the PC II that I have.I'm sure it would benefit from a dyno tune,it's been on the dyno twice and the curve and a/f ratio is good.I have basically the same set-up and run 8% more fuel high and low rpm and 12% in the mid,I think.I've messed with it a lot over the years.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Try the m113-003(two brothers full exhaust) as it has the same exhaust pairing as your Yoshi. With a full exhaust I would put her on the dyno and get it dialed in perfect. Not sure why dynojet keeps telling people to use the 102pc3 on the 01 bikes as they are the same as the 02-03 and should use the 113 model. I did a few posts on this earlier.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Thanks, but we may need to dig into this further. I got this email from Dynojet a couple months ago. He told me to get the 102 unit. Should I really just ignore what they say?

1999-2001 American models and 1999-2000 European models use PC3usb (PN: 102-411).

2002-2003 American models and 2001-2006 European models use PC3usb (PN: 113-411).

You can find the compatible product listing for your bike here: http://www.powercommander.com/power...r=411&prod-type=Powercommander III USB&notes=

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,

Chris Kelly
Dynojet Research Inc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

RC46, I found this on Wikipedia (of course, I realize that Wikipedia isn't necessarily correct). I'm thinking that if the below is true, then that's why Dynojet says to use a different one for the '02 than for my '01?

2000 No changes

2001 New dashboard now has a digital speedometer and other indicators, except tachometer, which is now in center of dashboard

2002 New EFI mapping to comply with emission standards and eliminate abrupt throttle response at low speeds.Manufacturer's power and torque figures reduced to 152 hp (113.3 Kw) and 87.8 ft-lbs (119 Nm)
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Look at a parts diagram and compare the 01 and 02. They are the same with the same part #'s, the changeover was for the 01 model year. Changes include cat converters for some markets, the digital dash, higher pressure fpr, new wire harness, and a new ecu with new mapping to account for the higher fuel pressure. There are a few other changes as well, but can't remember them off the top of my head. You can use the 102 on the later model birds but can only use the 113 on the 01 and up because of how they attach to the wire harness. The 113 connects to the large grey plug that comes off of all the injectors where as the 102 attaches to each individual injector as well as wire taps the tps. The 99-00 only disconnect at each individual injector where as the 01-up disconnect at the injectors as well as the grey plug mentioned. Hope this helps and dynojet doesn't always get stuff right as I have dealt with them on many occasions.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

I have read that as well and it might be true of the euro bikes but our north American bikes have the same part # for ecu (01-03) therefore the fuel map is the same as that is where the map comes from.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

The reduction of power had to due with how Honda was measuring it. They all still make about 140rwhp.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Very convincing :(

EDITED.

Damn! I'm not going to be happy if I got the wrong part as I don't have time before this trip to get the right one. I prepared for the moment when I'd buy a PC3 months in advance. Bah!
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Its okay, you can use the 102 on your bike no problem as they unhook from the individual injectors as well. Its just easier to use the 113 as there is only one thing to hook up. Try the 113-003 map and see how it runs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

LOL - okay, I'm having one of those days so bear with me.

Based on your convincing argument I called Indysuperbikes and cancelled my order of 102-411 based on what you said here, "You can use the 102 on the later model birds but can only use the 113 on the 01 and up because of how they attach to the wire harness."

It turns out that they had 102-411 boxed and ready to ship to me. I cancelled that and ordered 113-411 even though he said they were on backorder and would take a couple of weeks.

So, and since you're not in person you can't tell that I do appreciate the help and just want to clarify your two statements that contradict each other, does the '01 and up HAVE to use the 113 like you said earlier? I can tell you this, I'd rather have one connection than 4 to deal with as my bike is already loaded with accessories.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Just got a response from Chris again. RC46, you do understand that I have a North American model? Sadly, this is still completely unclear.

What the forum member is failing to explain is whether he is talking about American or overseas models. There was a major change implemented in 2001 on overseas models only. This major change wasn’t implemented on American models until the 2002 model year.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,

Chris Kelly
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Okay RC46, according to the part numbers you are correct that it's the '01 model that calls for a different ECU and hence fuel map. Pin-out too, btw? IOW, can you put a '00 ECU into an '01 (US model)?

2000: 38770-MAT-A02
2001: 38770-MAT-A21
2002: 38770-MAT-A21

Now, like you already knew, since a PC3 doesn't change anything the ECU is doing you can use either in terms of fueling, but like you said it appears that you can't use 113-411 on a 2000 or older due the fuel injector harness changes.

Also, you're right that it's in '01 that the harness at the injectors is different.

2000: Honda Motorcycle Parts 2000 CBR1100XX A WIRE HARNESS 99-00 Diagram
2001: Honda Motorcycle Parts 2001 CBR1100XX A WIRE HARNESS 01-03 Diagram

RC46, I think you were right all along and this seems to be the clearest answer that I can find on the interwebs regarding this issue for the '01, North American and NOT California model. I make no claims as to what's appropriate for Euro or California models of any years. RC46, do you agree with the above?
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Yes exactly. I have a 01 like yours and the 113 works fine. I went through the same dilemma as you before I got a pc3. Got mine used btw. Yes you can use the 102 on your 01, just use the 02-03 maps for it.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Just to be clear the 102 can be used on all years and the 113 on the 01 up only.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Sadly, Chris nor apparently Dynojet care about the facts presented above and "won't change their minds based off of anything that is said on a forum". Despite the fact that any engineer (of course I doubt this information got forwarded to one) worth a darn would see the irrefutable evidence above, research it themselves and correct their recommendations on their website.

This is a disappointing response from them. I suppose the reason that they haven't had to revisit it is because of just what you said above. They recommend 102-411 for my year, and since it doesn't NOT work they haven't had to correct their website/recommendation. Nonetheless this will be here for any and all to see. Thanks for your expertise RC46.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Exactly DaveJB, and I had the same battle with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

Ha! Well, next time someone with an '01 asks this same question you/we won't have to reinvent the wheel to convince them! Just refer them here :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

I'm still pissed at the arrogance of Dynojet about "...anything said on a forum." The source of something doesn't determine whether it's true or not. A$$holes. I'm going to take pictures of the install and email them - am going to be polite and pretend as if we hadn't been snubbed already.

Anyway, just got my PC3 (the wrong one according to Dynojet, 113-411) and will install it soon. RC46, you're saying that map will work for me because the header pairing is the same? Also, I don't understand why they'd say stock or aftermarket air filter when the K&N surely flows more air. Is it because they feel like the map with the stock air filter is rich enough that it won't run too lean with a K&N? Btw, who makes the maps on their sites anyway?

EDIT: nearly two years later let me answer this, now that I'm a stock filter only user. A K&N filter DOES flow more air but you'd better believe it doesn't filter as well and there's proof of this on the internet. But the proof is in the pudding with these maps in that the maps are the same for stock and K&N. Why? Because the stock filter flow more than enough than the engine needs.
 

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Re: Power Commander 3 on the way, but already installed K&N and Yosh. full exhaust

I have an '02, and installed the 113-411 with no issues.

The maps I'm not sure of who makes them, but remember that they are just "approximations" and not advertised as "custom tunes". In other words, to really get the most out of the power commander, you need to go to a tuner with a dyno that really knows what they're doing, and have a custom map created based on A/F Lambda through the RPM range under load for your particular build.

One other thing to remember. The PC makes "delta changes" to a base map (what is in your ECU) for fuel (not ignition timing). That means that if the ECU externally looks exactly the same, but Honda changed the base map programmed into a unit between two years, then the same map that you download from Dynojet will result in two different actual fuel configurations on two different bikes. I don't know enough to say if there were such changes between the '01 and '02 stock ECU so I have no idea if this has in fact happened.

The 113-411 PC3USB unit when installed out of the box will do nothing. That part number does not imply a specific map. You'll need to choose a map that you believe is closest to your config. Or, if you really want, schedule some dyno time with somebody who knows metric bikes and power commanders and get your custom map done

As complicated as this sounds, on the bird we actually have it simple. I'm running a YEC race ECU on my track R6, which alters both fuel and ignition. Some guys piggyback either a power commander or bazzaz even on top of the YEC ECU and use stock base maps on the YEC unit and then alter fuel with the PC. But others want the advantage of the YEC unit being able to make separate changes between primary and secondary injectors which the PC cannot do, but want broad scale adjustment of primary injectors with the PC or Bazzaz....

Point is, Dynojet does not and never will advertise the PCIII/V and their own maps as "fine tuning". They have always maintained that those maps are "for you to use and adjust as necessary". It's also why they released "Autotune" (which is not available for our bikes, because the PCV is required, and is not available for our bikes).
 
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