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Discussion Starter #121
Sounds good. I had looked at that module. But went the laptop route. Had all the pieces already here. And with the Dynojet running it was pretty easy to see real time. And with the play back i could review the one area of interest. That's how i verified the TPS bounce inherent to some of the PC3's the instructor told us about.
Wow that could be a bit annoying and a good piece of information that should be given out.
If you do and happen to remember I'd be interested in the outcome. I'll definitely be checking the newer ECU this winter.
 

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Discussion Starter #122 (Edited)
So to close out this the Newer ECU's been in here a couple weeks and no issues. The PCV with the Wideband2 running auto tune piggy back has been a great tuning tool. With it tied to the micro switch it's been very easy to work. I simply get the bike at a steady speed. Flip the switch and let it build the trim table. Another nice effect is that being able to manually switch it on and off. I can build correction tables at specific rpm and throttle settings at cruise. I've already seen my range to low level light increase. It's up at least 20 miles in range. Putting me in the 200 mile area now.
So albeit a bit more involved than I had originally planned it's been a success. And I also have the second benefit of verifying that we can upgrade to the newer ECU'S.
 

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So to close out this the Newer ECU's been in here a couple weeks and no issues. The PCV with the Wideband2 running auto tune piggy back had been a great running tool. With the it tied to the micro switch it's been very easy to work. I simply get the bike at a steady speed. Flip the switch and let it build the trim table. Another nice effect is that being able to manually switch it on and off. I can build correction tables at specific rpm and throttle settings at cruise. I've already seen my range to low level light. It's up at least 20 miles in range. Putting me in the 200 mile area now.
So albeit a bit more involved than I had originally planned it's been a success. And I also have the second benefit of verifying that we can upgrade to the newer ECU'S.
So what's the benefit doing a upgrade of a stock system
 

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Discussion Starter #124
I've felt a throttle response increase as a result. There is the ability to run the PCV. There is no support with the PC3 anymore. They no longer even make them. I also suspect they improved the mapping because of the above effects. If you have harness issues there is still 03 harnesses in the system. The newer harness is modular so that you can break out the fuse relay sections and the injector harnesses.
 

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Beestoys, appreciate the time and effort but overall sounds like a PCV for an 05-06 GSXR1000 is still the much easier option for Gen1 FI Birds. Although I haven't done the swap myself from what I read there is no need for an ECU and wiring harness swap to install a GSXR PCV in a Bird. I think I'll just stick with my PC3USB because I have it so well dialed in (using the ZT-2) at this point I don't see how adding a Autotune would make much difference. I'm still surprised how much fuel I had to pull out to get an ideal tune but the results don't lie. She spins quick as a 600 with strong linear pull all the way up. After 20 years I'm still amazed how how quick and easy I can see 140+. I've been meaning to get her back on a dyno now that I have her really dialed in. Curious what the numbers are.
 

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Anybody have a report on the effect a PC5 has on a later model gen 2 BB? I had a PC3 on my 1999 BB back in 2000. The problem I had with that unit was it threw a FI fault code which turned out to be a code for the barometric sensor. This PC3 unit used the baro sensor signal to re-adjust the fuel (unlike the later PC,s which directly control the injector pulse width). There was nothing wrong with with the PC 3 or the baro sensor as it turned out. I sent the PC3 back to DJ and they restricted how rich these PC 3's could enrich the mixture. The fault code turned out to be because the ECU saw the barometric sensor signal as out of range. I was experimenting with engine and exhaust mods for increased HP & TQ and I hit a wall at 166 HP after the revised PC 3 was returned. We could not get the A/F ratio richer than 13.4/1 with the altered PC 3 internal program. Not a problem for the average BB owner but as a prospective owner of a 2003 I am glad to see the PC 5 is available. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #127
Beestoys, appreciate the time and effort but overall sounds like a PCV for an 05-06 GSXR1000 is still the much easier option for Gen1 FI Birds. Although I haven't done the swap myself from what I read there is no need for an ECU and wiring harness swap to install a GSXR PCV in a Bird. I think I'll just stick with my PC3USB because I have it so well dialed in (using the ZT-2) at this point I don't see how adding a Autotune would make much difference. I'm still surprised how much fuel I had to pull out to get an ideal tune but the results don't lie. She spins quick as a 600 with strong linear pull all the way up. After 20 years I'm still amazed how how quick and easy I can see 140+. I've been meaning to get her back on a dyno now that I have her really dialed in. Curious what the numbers are.
Reston
Yes I agree and why I mentioned it as a cheaper route as well. The one thing to be a bit wary of is being an out of family unit (Suzuki) there may be some interface issues. When I started this I talked to the engineer at Dynojet about this. That is how I found out about them releasing a version for the BB's. Originally it was supposed to be for both Gen's. During the dicussion he said to stay in the same manufacturer. He didn't come right out and say there could be issues but staying in the same manufacturer would help prevent any. This is just another option in case someone is looking for a workable PCV.
 

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Discussion Starter #128
Anybody have a report on the effect a PC5 has on a later model gen 2 BB? I had a PC3 on my 1999 BB back in 2000. The problem I had with that unit was it threw a FI fault code which turned out to be a code for the barometric sensor. This PC3 unit used the baro sensor signal to re-adjust the fuel (unlike the later PC,s which directly control the injector pulse width). There was nothing wrong with with the PC 3 or the baro sensor as it turned out. I sent the PC3 back to DJ and they restricted how rich these PC 3's could enrich the mixture. The fault code turned out to be because the ECU saw the barometric sensor signal as out of range. I was experimenting with engine and exhaust mods for increased HP & TQ and I hit a wall at 166 HP after the revised PC 3 was returned. We could not get the A/F ratio richer than 13.4/1 with the altered PC 3 internal program. Not a problem for the average BB owner but as a prospective owner of a 2003 I am glad to see the PC 5 is available. :cool:
J
I'm basically running a Gen2 setup now and I know it can reportedly fuel -100/+250%. It also has an analog input which allows you to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature.
 

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J
I'm basically running a Gen2 setup now and I know it can reportedly fuel -100/+250%. It also has an analog input which allows you to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature.
I assumed as much as I have run the PC 5 on 3 other bikes (2 ZX-14's and my current BMW K1300HP). What I am interested in is how the PC5 affected performance and fuel mileage on a stock 2nd gen BB. I am looking at a 2003 soon and this time I am going to stay stock except for the PC5 and the auto tune if it makes a real world difference. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #130
Well I'm up in the upper 190's to 200 before the low fuel light comes on. I started with the 03 Euro map that has a lot of negative numbers. But I still ended up taking out more fuel. So I'd say it'll be money well spent. The auto tune makes it a whole lot easier to adjust too.
 

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Well I'm up in the upper 190's to 200 before the low fuel light comes on. I started with the 03 Euro map that has a lot of negative numbers. But I still ended up taking out more fuel. So I'd say it'll be money well spent. The auto tune makes it a whole lot easier to adjust too.
Whose gas are you running and what octane rating? I am assuming if you live in a major urban area it is a 10% ethanol blend.
 

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Discussion Starter #132
Fry grocery store. 87 octane just good old regular. And yes its 10% and oxygenated crap to boot ugh. If I go out of Maricopa county it jumps at least another 10 to 20 miles on the range. Putting me in the lower 200's
 

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I found that using high test 91 or 93 octane was a waste of money. Always used 89 octane top tier gas. The 10% ethanol changes the stoic from 14.7/1 to around 14.2/1 fuel air which in layman's terms means you need to run a little richer for best power.
 

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Discussion Starter #134
Found the same. And I'm tuning to 13.8 per Dynojets engineers recommendation.
 

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I found that using high test 91 or 93 octane was a waste of money. Always used 89 octane top tier gas. The 10% ethanol changes the stoic from 14.7/1 to around 14.2/1 fuel air which in layman's terms means you need to run a little richer for best power.
Depends how you ride…. If you’re just riding around casually 89 is fine. But if you’re going to get on it any (and how can you not on a Bird?) you’ll want 91/93. At the Birds 11:1 compression you’ll likely get detonation running 89 and the Birds “do” have a knock/detonation sensor that will retard ignition timing well before you’ll actually hear it, which of course then reduces power. If you want full performance definitely run 91/93. Higher octane is simply harder to ignite, or more specifically pre-ignite.
 

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And I'm tuning to 13.8 per Dynojets engineers recommendation.
I've done a lot of power commander experimenting & tuning over the years and I've found it best to run low 14's/high 13's A/F all the way down the whole column for 0, 2, 5 and 10% throttle. This is basic highway cruising throttle range. You don't want a lot of fuel at 10% or less throttle. Then mid 13's (13.5) for 20% all the way down the column. Then low 13's/high 12's A/F for 40, 60, 80 and 100%. There's nothing wrong with going into the high 12's, it's "not" too rich at all. 13.8 is too lean for hard acceleration above 20%, low 13's/high 12's will definitely feel smoother and faster. Definitely at least try richer just to see how it feels... Just my experiences...
 

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Discussion Starter #137 (Edited)
Agreed
The Honda mapping does good job for roll on and hard acceleration from what I've seseeseseen and logged. So I've been concentrating more on cruise values. I agree on the low 13's high 12's 12.5 has been the basic go too for hard acceleration.
I will iterate again the Wideband2 and autotune feature of the PC5 has made the rough road getting here well with it. Add to that the POD module and I have the added ability to go back and see a hard graph of the tune run.
Coupling that with making the map active with a manual switch and the fact that the trim table is accumulative. I can stack runs at different throttle points over a couple days. So I can cover more of the table and not have to pack it all into one day.
Or if i am riding and see that my afr has shifted more i can switch on the trim builder and let it gather offsets for me instantly.
 

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I've done a lot of power commander experimenting & tuning over the years and I've found it best to run low 14's/high 13's A/F all the way down the whole column for 0, 2, 5 and 10% throttle. This is basic highway cruising throttle range. You don't want a lot of fuel at 10% or less throttle. Then mid 13's (13.5) for 20% all the way down the column. Then low 13's/high 12's A/F for 40, 60, 80 and 100%. There's nothing wrong with going into the high 12's, it's "not" too rich at all. 13.8 is too lean for hard acceleration above 20%, low 13's/high 12's will definitely feel smoother and faster. Definitely at least try richer just to see how it feels... Just my experiences...
Higher octane fuel burns slower, lower octane burns faster. They both have the same energy content. I agree with everything said above but my experience dyno tuning and drag racing says to use the lowest octane fuel that will prevent detonation. The BB compression at 11/1 is relatively low for a modern 4 valve design. I ran 12.5/1 on my 99 BB and made 166 RWHP with no evidence of pre-ignition on 89 octane Shell. Every build is different depending on the combination. At 11/1 there is plenty of safety built into the BB design. Just my experience and there is certainly no downside to using higher octane fuel. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter #139
👍
 

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I ran 12.5/1 on my 99 BB and made 166 RWHP with no evidence of pre-ignition on 89 octane Shell.
How'd you get 12:5? Custom pistons? The JE's are only 11.5. Or have the head milled? Both?

You may have been giving up some power with the 89. My 2000 dyno'd 163.8 RWHP and 88 FP (on Dynojet dyno) with a stock bottom end, thin head gasket, ported/valve job head and just drop-in cams (w/ original springs). And that was before I got it really well dialed in. Running 12.5:1, with some higher lift cams (I assume) and the +2mm bore you should have easily seen 180 RWHP and >90FP (on a similar Dynojet dyno). The knock sensor may have been pulling timing before you can actually hear any detonation. Just my speculation though... Easy to test>> run higher octane see if the power picks up. Or hook up an inductive clamp (if avaialble) to watch timing.
 
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