Honda CBR XX Forum banner

101 - 120 of 149 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #101
Well dang I just tried and your right. I'll go back and change them

Take that back for some reason it's giving me this flag. But not sure I even edited anything that recently. Guess I'll have to wait and see if it clears and then change the photos out
You may not edit more than 10 different post(s) within 7 days
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #102
Ok
Maiden flight in to work. I've got an intermittent misfire. I'll do some troubleshooting through the week as I'm back at work. It's not bad but it's there. I did a lot of connector work obviously for the change. So I'll keep everyone posted on my results.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #103
Update
Well good news bad news.
Good, is that the miss has been cleared. Took the PCV out of the loop and misfires gone.
Bad, PCV seems to be the culprit. I'm suspecting a grounding issue.
The system has 2 ground wires one is the box/system ground black
The second is a digital ground Black/white tracer. Under normal operation you can tie them both together. But if your wanting to sample say a TPS or MAP signal you should tie the digital ground into the sensors ground. This ensures they are both seeing the same ground plane.
So I'll do some more testing. I'm very confident this PCV will work. That's another reason I went this route
It's a proven system on the 01 and up. So it should here as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
So does that mean undoing the the ground that you splice and using one or two of the spare plug holes for a separate grounds.
I looked at loom pics and seen the later bird has a extra plug in the injection harness.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #105 (Edited)
Not sure just yet. I'm thinking that I need to tie the black white wire on the pcv to the ground going back to the ECM. Our earlier FI's have what I suspect are 2 digital grounds at the ECM. Still investigating. I don't think we'll need to populate more ports in the connector but having 3 blanks may be an option to use. We'll see I have an old harness here I'll untape and chase out the wires. And I'll get back with my results.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #106
So did some more work with the PCV plugged in. What is happening is I am getting a spike in the Injector signals and in the rpm. I can see the injector signals on the POD 300 and the tach signal on the laptop running the PC tune table.

Took an old harness apart, man there's a crap load of tape. I traced each Black/White trace wire out and verified both harnesses ring out identical.

So tomorrow I'm going to swap out PCV's as I bought 2 of them one for mine and my son's bike. I'll swap in the other one and see if the symptoms change.

Then I'm going to install the factory 01 Injector harness and see what happens.

The last test will be to tie the digital ground off the PCV to the BB's digital ground line of which we have going back to the computer. I am hoping this is the problem and why it's spiking.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #107
Test bed Engine set but hasn't been fired in so long injectors are acting up. Gonna let the rail set overnight charged and see if it clears it out went from nothing to hitting on at least one after about 10 minutes of fuel soak. Hopefully the others free up overnight.
129313
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shedspace

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #109
Getting a break up in the system running the PCV's. This is a 01 engine and ECU complete so the plug in is 100% to this setup. So I want to make sure it's not the bike reacting badly. See my earlier posts for more info.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #110
Well overnight set did it. She's running smooth as silk on all 4. So now we'll swap in the PC's and see how they act.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #111
Update
Not good news I'm afraid. The Second Gen BB's use a higher primary coil voltage on the trigger wire. It's actually almost twice as high as the Gen 1. So the PCV is causing the Tach voltage to jump to 20 volt signal into the Gen1 computer when it should be 5v and it's not happy about it. The PCV also does not like the lower Coil trigger voltage. This in combination is creating a false rpm count and making the system glitch causing the tach signal to bounce extremely high. This in turn cranks up the duty cycle and injector duration only for a split second. What then happens I believe is the ECM trips off for a split second shutting off fuel and causing an injector misfire. I can see this with the AFR operating because it spikes high for a split second as well. Telling me injectors are being shut down, if it was spark the AFR would spike low. It hasn't popped anything in my ECM yet but over a long period I can't say. And I'm not willing to take a chance with an extended running test.

Now there is a possible solution, find a Gen2 computer to run the system. We suspect there aren't any issues because the bike and the spare engine both run with either computer installed. IE Gen2 computer in Gen1 system or Gen1 computer in Gen2 system. The only thing is the temp sensor which should be a simple swap out for the appropriate gauge. The stickler is the FI indicator. There are two options for this on the Analog dash 1. Sourcing in a LED bulb for the FI port without a load resistor. 2. Would be a digital relay controlling a 12v source. Because the Gen2 runs at 5 volts or nothing. The Gen1 needs 12 volts. The 3rd option is to convert to a digital dash. I am ordering a Gen2 gauge harness and sensor for my son's BB as he wants to convert over gauge sets anyway. Once we have the harness I can verify there aren't any any FI faults. Then I'll run it for a week or so with the modified FI indicator. If all goes well then I'll install the PCV and start tuning.

I was hoping this would be a straight swap over but alas the curse of customization is that sometimes it doesn't go completely to plan RATS. But it does look doable albeit a bit more involved than originally thought. At this point I would probably go down the CBR1000 path some others have done to adapt in a PCV. It's not as involved as this route morphed into. My plan is to continue down this path given my outlay and parts involved. I am very confident it is a working solution. I know one member has ordered the connectors and at this point I would say to go the CBR1000 route at this point.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #113
Nah
More like a tinkerer that can't leave well enough alone and sometimes that gets me in trouble 😂. Luckily I have a very tolerant misses and some dumb luck.
This mod didn't turn out the way I hoped but at least it's not a total loss🙄
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #115
It's been a while. Want to thank Evan Chance for giving me a great deal on a new A21 01 ECU for the blackbird. We got the harness to install the digital dash on my sons 99 BB. So I hooked it up to my bird and installed the 01 computer out of the test engine. Good news is that it DIDN'T throw a code. So the next step will be to install the ECU from Chance and make my commutes to and from work for a week. I want to verify that the system doesn't throw codes or act up. I don't suspect that it will but there is the matter of the ECT (Engine Collant Temp) sensor. On the early analog systems its a 47.5 K resistance at 68 F the Digital is 2.1 K. so there's a bit of difference. The plan is to run the stock temp sensor and see how the computer reacts. The temp sensor is not a primary input for the PGMFI system. It's a correction input so I am suspecting that it doesn't have as great an impact so changing the sensor in the housing doesn't trigger a fault. I'll keep you posted.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #116
PCV is back in with the Wideband2 and the POD 300. I have switched over to the 2nd gen A21 computer. I also changed out the FI incandescent bulb with a LED light. Need to go to a bit brighter output bulb but it works as it's supposed to. Key on engine off it lights as the sytem is doing a diagnostic check then goes out. So no faults seen with key on and idling or revving. I'll run it through this week and verify the system works with no faults. I've already been tuning with just the Wideband 2 in stand alone. Once I got the setup figured out it helps a bunch trimming fuel. I was able to set up a grid that represented the cells of the PC3 map and then adjusted fuel out. It's been a lot easier to adjust. It's also been a lot easier to gather a data run.
So to sum this up it didn't turn out to be as simple as I had hoped due to the signal differences to the Tach input from 1st to 2nd gen. But if nothing else using the wideband 2 alone for tuning is a very good kit.
As I stated earlier. If anyone wants to convert over to a PCV I'd probably do the other conversion Cobra and the gent from Norway did. Yes you have to do some connector mod but it's not as involved as my setup. I kept rolling this one because of the cost I had wrapped up in it. I also have 3 A21 computers as spares on a side so I have backups for me and my youngest son's 2nd gen. And if my oldest follows suit then we'll still have one good spare to fall back on if we ever loose and ECU.

Thanks for everyone's inputs and enjoy your bird I sure am.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tappas

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #117
So 3 days up on the revised system. I'm running an A21 2nd gen FI computer with the stock 00 harness. It has been modified with a connector at the injection bundle to mimic the 2nd gens hookup. It was modified to allow the Dynojet model specific PCV they make to be a plug in.

Take away so far.
1. My butt dyno tells me that response is a bit crisper. I notice it rolling on at freeway speeds and coming out if corners. The idle bump feature is also present now. My ear hears it as well. The bike is idling a bit smoother as well.
So I suspect there have been changes in the mapping from 1st to 2nd gen. To cause the above results.
2. AFR's are tracking very close to my original values with the PC3. I have noticed a much steadier TPS signal its locked now where with the 3 it did drift a bit. And on occasions it would jump a couple places randomly. The 5 has been rock steady. So it backs up what an instructor had mentioned about the 3's.
I haven't had a chance to review my tuning logs yet. I just got them downloaded this morning. Win pep thier tuning software suites still kicking me around some getting things setup for plotting. And i haven't had a chance to see if the Autotune worked with my switch setup as well. Once I get a chance to look them over I'll let you know.
Have to say though that running with the POD 300 and the Wideband2 alone has made making changes much simpler. I have been able to build a plotting graph that mimics the Power Commanders tune table. Which makes it much simpler to target offsets to correct to my 13.8 setting.
Looking forward to getting the trim table to work as well. Dynojet prebuilt a trim target table for the bird that isincorporated in the PCV that populates to what one of thier engineers recommended me to shoot for. His recommendation was 13.8 and when I opened up the table the bulk of the numbers were 13.8 with 13.6 being set for higher rpm areas.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Interesting to hear about the idle stabilizing when running the V compared to the III. Shame it takes so much sorcery to get the PCV working with Gen 1 FI Birds. Getting the Autotune in place will be the real reward for getting the PCV working. It should (in theory) allow you to create a near perfect A/F map specific to your bike mods and riding style as opposed to generic dyno roll-on A/F tuning. Because I’m still running a PCIII I had to use a Zeitronix ZT-2 to log my A/F while riding around and although not perfect I think it’s pretty darn close. Getting the A/F accurately dialed-in made a HUGE difference. It’s so much more fun riding a bike that’s dialed into its specific mods, environment and my riding style. I targeted around 14:1 for cruising but went lower (richer) for power like into the upper/mid 12’s. A bit more fuel just always felt stronger and smoother when rolling on.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,146 Posts
Discussion Starter #119
Agreed Reston
My PC3 tuning has been very similar to yours. We run a laptop with a solid state drive in a computer pouch on a alumarack on the back of the bike. We run a screen capture program. Split the screen and with the PC tuner running in active cell mapping and a Zeitronix ZT2 running the mapping program as well. Then go back analyze the data and tune out or in fuel.
The PCV is much easier with the POD 300. Much smaller package but a steeper learning curve. It's been very tricky trying to get the WinPep software to display runs. But I'll get it sorted.
On tuning note have you noticed a drop in your AFR when the ambient temps dip into the 50 to 60 F range.
We have on both mine and my sons 1st gen BB's. It'll be curious to see how the 2nd gen reacts. Funny thing is if we tune in the summer we see the numbers go rich when the temp drops. But if we tune during the winter months (yes we do get winters here) and the temps go warm the system compensates just fine.
I have been targeting 13.8 for a running AFR and like you 12.5 when accelerating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
I’ve always just logged the ZT2 parameters during my whole ride (A/F, RPM and TP) to the SD memory chip logger that came with the ZT2 then analyze and make adjustments when I get home on the big screen. One trick with the ZT2 (if you hadn’t noticed) before starting a logging session you should roll the throttle to full 100% with the ignition on but before starting the bike. One odd thing I noticed about the ZT2 is that there is no throttle position range setting function. The ZT2 never knows what the full range is between 0 and 100% throttle until you hit 100% throttle. Kind of a significant oversight by Zeitronix but still works 10x better than the Innovate LM2 PoS.

Honestly I don’t ride the Bird at all when highs are in the mid 50’s or below. By that time in the season (around here) the Bird is in bed for the winter and I’m on my Stratoliner with the big shield. I never did any A/F logging during fall. But given your experience I might run some test while we're in the lower 60's just to see how it works out.
 
101 - 120 of 149 Posts
Top