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Don Gato
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294 Posts
The most certain thing i should do is changing the R/R. I haven´t ever measured anything though the battery, so this will be a nice challenge.

I need to take some pictures right away. Am going home to check this items.

Really appreciate this guys!!! :clap:
 

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Administrator
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Agreed with everything that shewie has written above
Mine is stepping the 15 almost 16 V and that is something to be worried ´bout.
That is too high, (I've never seen 15v even when the battery has been well down) apart from doing the tests I wouldn't do more until the problem is diagnosed/rectified - my bet would be on the reg/rec and I feel you are in danger of cooking the battery.

EDIT we appear to have been posting at the same time hence the slight 'overlap'!
 

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Don Gato
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294 Posts
Well well well... I guess a dwarf is living within my bike.

Yeah, i know it sounds like if i were :wazzup: but yesterday i started the engine, let it iddle for a while and after a few minutes i started the readings...

:eek:

2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 RPM and the voltimeter according to what my brother said (he´s really useless but at least he knows the numbers :rotfl:) were ALMOST the same values than "TheDuck".

I thought something was wrong so i turned it off, explain my brother what i was doing (he was looking at me like some kind of alien when i was talking to him) and all over agaaaaaaaaaainnnnnnnnn...

Start the engine, let it iddle, 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k and i got the same digits.

:idunno:


Thank you people for being there when a dumb like me need some help. I hope one day i can pay you back
 

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DRUGGREPP
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42 Posts
I had one on my f3 die and cook the battery, smelled like rotten eggs.
I checked with my local dealer i trust and he said they stock lots of RR because tons fail.
So i cut a hole in side fairing where it fits, covered it with aluminum mesh so rr gets plenty of air, it needs it.
Then bought a spare to carry with me on long trips.
The thing gets very hot and there is not enough air flow around it to keep it cool. Some have moved it down into the airstream.
2 years now and no failures, but the extra goes with me on long trips anyway.
 

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My leads from the stator fried at the connector going into the R/R. Can I assume the stator is OK and just replace the R/R and fried connector? All leads and connectors downstream from the R/R appear normal. Thanks!
 

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Resident Eh?hole.
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17,177 Posts
All three leads, or just two?
 

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896 Posts
pull the connector apart and test the voltages between each stator pair 12 23 31 they should read over 50v ac

this connector is problematic, cut it out and join the wires up with a heavy duty connection block or solder them and wrap in tape to insulte them, the is a big chance your stator and RR are fine, what happens is this connector breaks down and as one of the stator feeds becomes bad the other two have to keep supplying the current for three - they overheat and melt the connector
 

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So...when the battery is happy and you've got all your zoodads powered up...the excess hydro is wasted...which heats up the SCR's in the reg/rec and thus leads to failure of the unit over time. Does that about sum it up?

My comment or question is.. Then why is it that we are somewhat leery of adding extra gadgets that might consume power off the electrical system if the system is in fact wasting the excess power that is produced?

I just made comment that I'd like to perhaps go back to a 100watt bulb in my low beam position, on another thread. This I exspect will put something of a extra load on the electrical system....but what if anything does that mean if in fact the reg/rec is going to waste the hydro as heat anyway?

I changed out the failed 100watt bulb back in what was it...09,...I think. I then ran through the 2010 season with the lower watt bulb and no electrical issues. Come July of 2011 there is a reg/rec/stator issues. I wonder if the lower power consumption has anything to do with the failure of the system? (The bulk of the riding of the bike is touring/distance riding. The bike was on something of a extended highway speed tour at the point of system failure.) Maybe the time had come for a failure regardless of the load put on the system,..but still...the commentary seems to point to two issues that are at odds with each other. On the one hand we say/believe that the Honda electrical system tend to be anemic in there lack of excessive output...but then again we believe that the systems designs which waste hydro as heat is a reason for the failures. When we install HID systems and LED type this and that..all by there nature which consume/draw less power off the bike electrical system...are we in fact adding to the heat load on the reg/rec circuits?

Tony "Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm". Bagley
 

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pull the connector apart and test the voltages between each stator pair 12 23 31 they should read over 50v ac

this connector is problematic, cut it out and join the wires up with a heavy duty connection block or solder them and wrap in tape to insulte them, the is a big chance your stator and RR are fine, what happens is this connector breaks down and as one of the stator feeds becomes bad the other two have to keep supplying the current for three - they overheat and melt the connector
You described it perfectly. All three leads are scorched but it appears the connector is mostly burned through and melted over 2 of the connectors. The source of the heat seemed to be at the connector. Thanks!
 

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So...when the battery is happy and you've got all your zoodads powered up...the excess hydro is wasted...which heats up the SCR's in the reg/rec and thus leads to failure of the unit over time. Does that about sum it up?

My comment or question is.. Then why is it that we are somewhat leery of adding extra gadgets that might consume power off the electrical system if the system is in fact wasting the excess power that is produced?

I just made comment that I'd like to perhaps go back to a 100watt bulb in my low beam position, on another thread. This I exspect will put something of a extra load on the electrical system....but what if anything does that mean if in fact the reg/rec is going to waste the hydro as heat anyway?

I changed out the failed 100watt bulb back in what was it...09,...I think. I then ran through the 2010 season with the lower watt bulb and no electrical issues. Come July of 2011 there is a reg/rec/stator issues. I wonder if the lower power consumption has anything to do with the failure of the system? (The bulk of the riding of the bike is touring/distance riding. The bike was on something of a extended highway speed tour at the point of system failure.) Maybe the time had come for a failure regardless of the load put on the system,..but still...the commentary seems to point to two issues that are at odds with each other. On the one hand we say/believe that the Honda electrical system tend to be anemic in there lack of excessive output...but then again we believe that the systems designs which waste hydro as heat is a reason for the failures. When we install HID systems and LED type this and that..all by there nature which consume/draw less power off the bike electrical system...are we in fact adding to the heat load on the reg/rec circuits?

Tony "Things that make you go "Hmmmmmm". Bagley
you are making the assumption that the RR will be under less stress and producing less heat if you increase the power consumption of the electrical system, don't forget that your engine revs probably average out at maybe 3k at which point the generator/stator will be producing less energy/power, I run HID lights 35w and have done 60k on the same RR, only problems I've had are with the stator RR connector and the solinoid main fuse holder melting - common issues on the BB, also note that the FI BB uses a lot more power than the carb BB, yet the RR gives more trouble on the FI BB but also note that my guess would be that a lot of RR's where replaced in error.
 

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DrRythym
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8 Posts
I had this problem. I did not recognise the symptoms until my battery went flat a very long way from anywhere. Your first warning sign will be a symptom like a flat battery when starting. You will be able to jump start or push start. Then you will notice your tacho will stop working. If that happens you are about to be in trouble. I replaced mine with a Yamaha unit which is far more robust than the Honda item. It pays to check all the wiring around the RR as it can get very hot, as mentioned in other responses to the thread. You would want to replace the RR at about 80,000Km as a precaution. That is about when most of them go (according to others who had the same issue) Happy riding.
 

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Resident Eh?hole.
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17,177 Posts
I've been doing a little reading to try to get a better hold on the internal working of the circuitry in the reg/rec as, while electricity is my business, electronics are not. Most of what I know about them has been via the limited training I received in trade school, heavily supplemented by my own research.
It has recently come to light that I was incorrect in a few basic assumptions about the way SCRs work vs MOSFETs, and how each functions in the reg/rec.
I will attempt to correct my previous comments here.

First, the OEM Honda reg/rec is a piece of trash, plain and simple, with an inbuilt propensity for short lifespan of both itself and the rest of the bike's electrical components, including most particularly (but certainly not limited to) the battery. If your bike is still running an OEM unit, the best decision you can make is to replace it with a Shindengen MosFet reg now and avoid the inevitable component-eating failure.

The OEM reg uses SCRs to rapidly switch power flow, either directing it through the rectifier section and on to the battery, or shunting it to ground. When the SCRs are "turned off", they allow the alternator's power output to go to the battery et al; when they are "turned on", they dump (shunt) it to the chassis ground.
The SCRs perform this switching operation quite rapidly (probably many times per second) to keep up with the changing demands of the battery and electrical system, as well as the varying output of the alternator.
The problem with SCRs is that they are not really an efficient switch and they create a lot of internal heat, not only as a by-product of conducting current to ground, but also from the actual switching process itself, because of the basic nature of how they function. Because they rely on the level of current flow through them to effect the change, rather than solely on the gate (the switch) input itself, they are relatively slow to react.
Blah blah blah, bottom line is that, as they function, they are killing themselves with heat. This heat makes them react more and more slowly, which generates more and more heat and eventually (and inevitably) causes them to fail. This will be visible to you as an increasingly wider range of voltage outputs. At some point, one or more of them will either fuse (stop conducting altogether), which will show as a reduced peak output, or it will start conducting all the time, which will show as an over voltage, and boil your battery dry.
SCRs were used in the OEM presumably because they traditionally have a higher current rating than the alternatives available when they first switched over to permanent magnet alternators in favour of the older (more efficient) wound rotor style, which used more parts, was more expensive to make and needed more maintenance.
MOSFETs are now quite capable of carrying the load and have been for quite some time. It was my initial (mistaken) belief that MOSFETs acted like a variable switch, which was incorrect. They are on-off like the SCR, and perform the same function in the regulator. The difference is that they rely solely on the gate input to switch states and are much faster and more efficient, which means they do not generate nearly as much heat, making them far more reliable, long-lived and, perhaps most importantly, makes the voltage output more accurate and stable.
My apologies for any previous misinformation, this is still a learning process for me.
Anyway, what it boils down to is this: it's not a matter of "if" your OEM reg will fail, it's a matter of "when". It will fail, the only unknown is how much time you have.
Sorry for the hellfire and brimstone sermonizing. Have a nice day. :)
 

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The old tread that wouldn't die (or stop helping folks!) :)

When I last rode my Bird it picked up the habit of starting easily when cold, but if driven for 30 minutes and turned off, it wouldn't start up again quickly (say, after a 5 minute break or even a stop to top off the gas tank) without either a jump start or a 3 hour wait. I swapped the battery and that had no effect. I am now (thanks to this thread) going to look at replacing all three of the big components (the stator, R/R, and battery) and hope that that fixes that issue. So, a question: As I mentioned in another thread about a new chain and sprockets, I have done little work on this bike or any other beyond oil and filters and occasionally bolting on those big delrin blocks, I forget what they called them (frame sliders maybe?). Anyway, will I have any trouble getting a modern MOSFET R/R (like this one -http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/birdextra.htm ) hooked up on my '97? Same number of cables, etc?

EDIT: Would something like this b powerful enough for my '97?
https://www.denniskirk.com/ricks-mo...gh-output-charging-kit.p208607.prd/208607.sku
 

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I are the grammar police
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3,362 Posts
The old tread that wouldn't die (or stop helping folks!) :)

When I last rode my Bird it picked up the habit of starting easily when cold, but if driven for 30 minutes and turned off, it wouldn't start up again quickly (say, after a 5 minute break or even a stop to top off the gas tank) without either a jump start or a 3 hour wait. I swapped the battery and that had no effect. I am now (thanks to this thread) going to look at replacing all three of the big components (the stator, R/R, and battery) and hope that that fixes that issue. So, a question: As I mentioned in another thread about a new chain and sprockets, I have done little work on this bike or any other beyond oil and filters and occasionally bolting on those big delrin blocks, I forget what they called them (frame sliders maybe?). Anyway, will I have any trouble getting a modern MOSFET R/R (like this one -http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/birdextra.htm ) hooked up on my '97? Same number of cables, etc?

EDIT: Would something like this b powerful enough for my '97?
https://www.denniskirk.com/ricks-mo...gh-output-charging-kit.p208607.prd/208607.sku
Hi Jim,

Might be worth checking a few other things before plunking down big bucks. What happens when you hit the starter button (on the occasions when it doesn't start)? Does the starter motor turn? Does the relay make clicky/buzzy noises and nothing else? Just based on your post, I'd put the problem into a "hot start" problem bucket, and that may or may not be directly related to R/R failure. A lot depends on the details here.

Amongst other things, hot start issues can be caused by bad electrical connections (like corroded earth/grounds) and marginal/weak wiring. Not to say that the battery isn't weakened by the R/R starting to fail - and the good advice on this thread isn't changed - but I'd say to check that the basic electrical path itself is healthy first.

Pardon me if you've already done this!
 

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Resident Eh?hole.
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17,177 Posts
The old tread that wouldn't die (or stop helping folks!) :)

When I last rode my Bird it picked up the habit of starting easily when cold, but if driven for 30 minutes and turned off, it wouldn't start up again quickly (say, after a 5 minute break or even a stop to top off the gas tank) without either a jump start or a 3 hour wait. I swapped the battery and that had no effect. I am now (thanks to this thread) going to look at replacing all three of the big components (the stator, R/R, and battery) and hope that that fixes that issue. So, a question: As I mentioned in another thread about a new chain and sprockets, I have done little work on this bike or any other beyond oil and filters and occasionally bolting on those big delrin blocks, I forget what they called them (frame sliders maybe?). Anyway, will I have any trouble getting a modern MOSFET R/R (like this one -http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/birdextra.htm ) hooked up on my '97? Same number of cables, etc?

EDIT: Would something like this b powerful enough for my '97?
https://www.denniskirk.com/ricks-mo...gh-output-charging-kit.p208607.prd/208607.sku
To add to Mayfield's comments, if you do find there is a problem with the charging system then:
A) I would advise you to consider the series regulator over the MosFet unit. The reasons for this have been explained in various threads and
B) do not use the item linked in your post - it's a single phase, high voltage stator designed for older bikes. The stator in the bird is a three-phase, low voltage that actually provides more power than that one will.
 
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