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Discussion Starter #1
i have pretty well finished the nr 2 and it runs like a turbine and now the brakes actually brake when needed and not all the time
but
i have an issue
background
i got the bike very very cheap as the carbs were blocked and the brakes siezed and the intermediate startet gear had a sheared off tooth
the bike had been stood in a dry garage for possibly 10 years
so the engine was totally dried out when he tried to start it before and sheared the starter gear tooth gave up and sold it
when i got it the engine was loose and i replaced the gear as it was of course noisy
with the carbs fixed up and a new battery it would start hen cold and run well
if i turned on the all the lights there was no voltage drop and the rectifier was running only slightly warm
i cant check the charging voltage as i cant run the bike unless i bump start it with the seat off
so there you have the background
so the problem is
when its warmed up the starter will try to turn and give up and the warning lights will dim and go out
the starter relay clicks and you hear a internal sparking noise as if it was overloaded
i have drained 2 bike batteries with this issue and they may need to be replaced
and I have had to bump start the bike 3 times
i have a spare car battery and it will not turn over the engine either.....

so i am guessing that: i have a duff starter motor as its ok when cold and shorting out when hot
any other thoughts?
look forward to your expertise
paul
 

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Discussion Starter #2
update
i removed the starter motor and stripped it down and the brush area was chock full of carbon dust
i cleaned everything out and lubed the bearing surfaces and put it back together and test ran it with a car battery
several times
it seemed to do what its supposed to
so i put is back in the engine and conected all the hoses up and oriented the worm clips so they can be accessed
and did a test start in the bike
it turned over no issue ( cold of course )
so i put all the rest back and filled with water and started her up
no problem there eitherµ
now i had the seat off and measured the dc voltage at the terminals under no load condition
at idle about 13.7 v and running faster 16.5 v which i think is a tad high and may be cooking the battery which makes them weak
the question now is added about this point...
to resume
question 1
failure of a hot starter motor is a known issue?
question 2
what is the correct battery terminal voltage at 3500 rpm ?
thanks for your feedback
paul
 

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Paul,
1. I don't recall any talk of the starter motor at all since I joined this site.
2. 14.5V should be top number, ideally. 16.5V way too high. You are in danger of blowing fuses and bulbs and cooking a battery or 2, then the stator. R/R is on the way out IMO. Do not run like this.
 

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Agree R/R is going or gone. Don't run it much as fizzy states or your going to start taking out components
 

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Discussion Starter #5
thanks both you have confirmed my thoughts
the next question is what is the best price/ performance solution to replace the RR,
my BB nr 1 has a aftermarket tourmax fitted and it seems to have been there a looonnnggg time( before i had the bike ) with no issues so far...
i have read that the Ricks ones are rather good but rather expensive
i have heard that a lot of guys in the uk shift to kawa ZZR 14 rr with eastern beaver harness adapter and swear its the best solution
there are also people claiming to sell the original japan made RR used on the later injection models which were " better "
in the meantime im going to remove the dud RR and swap it for the Tourmax used on the BB nr 1 to see if that ' regulates' the issue
look forward to your thoughts
paul
 

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Hi Paul!
Like fizzy and beestoys said, it can be the R/R. Is important take a look to connectors, usually they start burning and wires too. If the wiring is well you can fit this:
Honda Blackbird CBR1100XX 97-07 TourMax Regulator Rectifier - Jaws Motorcycles
Honda Blackbird CBR1100XX 99-00 EFI Analogue ElectroSport Regulator/Rectifier - Jaws Motorcycles

If wiring is damaged the best way is this:

Mosfet regulator rectifier honda cb cbr 1100 xx cbr 600 f cb 900 vtr 1000 xl | eBay

I think there are threads in this forum about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
thankyou JM for your thoughtful reply
as they often say the plot thickens....
as i mentioned i have 2x BB a uk origin one tatty but fixed up
and a black one from germany with very low milage but stored for 10+ years which brings its own set of issues
as i had the issue with the vltage being too high on the black one and cooking my batteries ( 2 but i have slow charged them an they seem to come to life again )
i took off the oem sh638_12 RR and checked the wiring all the way back to the alternator lead
the contacts are all pristine and i gave them a shot of contact cleaner
being that the wiring was nice and tidy i decided to remove the tourmax rr from the uk bike
them i was aghast with shame for not having checked earlier
the socket was scorched in particular to stator lines nr 1 +3
strangely enough the output lines +- were pristine
as were the connector block to the stator output '( which also has thin wires )
i cleaned up the terminals of the tourmax RR and then fillted it to german BB
ran it up and measured the battery voltage that stayed at 14.5/14.7 v which i guess is within the norms
however the RR got very warm very quickly ( almost too hot to touch ) so i shut down and removed it
im guessing but with the wires that are a little too thin plus oxidised amp connectors plus a hot RR plus lots of heat insulaton makes a perfect storm for a meltdown

so it looks like i am good for
1 2 pce of RR
2 re doing the amp connectors of buying a non oem RR with its own sub harness like the one as shown by JM...
this is all getting to be a little expensive...
plus im stocking up on parts for the next project and i have 0 BB rideable at this time..

on the german bike with the pristine connectors i dont want to cut and shut if i can avoid it so i may try a later oem ( finned ) RR if the crew here thinks that is acceptable
otherwise it will be a ricks with the std 5 pole connector...
look forward to be educated ..
paul
 

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In my opinion , this www.roadstercycle.com is the place to get the goods if you plan to keep your bike for the long haul. Recommend you read thru the website top to bottom.
Packed full of excellent info on the subject of motorcycle charging. I went with the "superkit", BIG FAT wires direct to the battery and yes you do have to cut the 3 pin connector.
I have beestoys to thank for turning me on to this place years ago when I has the same issues as you, well worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
thanks Fizzy
i written to him for a price inc shipping to belgium
thanks for the info
paul
 

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I'll second Jack's. I've had one of his first units an SH12 that I ran for 10 years. It's out now but only because I switched over to the series unit. It's setting in my toolbox now it may migrate to my oldest son's BB
 

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Discussion Starter #11
well i got a reply but due to the covid he cant ship out of usa as the delivery time is 2+ months ...
seems the virus has attacehd USPS DHL fedex and UPS all at the sme time
strange as in the eu i can get a parcel from germany in 3 days ...
so im going to try some alternatives and study the results and report back to the forum crew
paul
 

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Discussion Starter #12
ok jut did some electrical testing in both BB
resistance to earth on all phases infinite
voltage between phases delta configuration approx 24 v at idle to 36 v rms at 3000 rpm on all phases
current draw on phases from 2 to 4 amp variable per phase no lights on
so it seems that the stators are in good order
i have checked the amp connectors of 1/4 inch are rated for 15 amps max continious by RS components
the ones used by honda have a special flat area to get max contact with the RR spade so are probably good for 20 amp max
the wire is good for about 15 amp continious per phase

my thoughts so far on the failure mode and with the background of hi amperage connectors used in the large flying model industry as a hobby for many years

and with a background that the bikes electrical tech is 20+ years old

1 the tech of the RR is extremely ancient and is basically a kind of glorified zener diode coupled with a 3 phase rectifier
the zener diode is a kind of shunt that has a break over voltage set at about 14... volts
above this it will shunt to earth and the current passing through will be used to make heat , very old and very wasteful

2 the way the box is made is rather stupid the components are encased in resin and cannot breathe except the zener which is attached to a alu plate

3 the alu plate is conductive and is fastened to a steel plate on the frame hoping for good thermal transfer to dissapate the heat to the frame
4 but the parts are not well thermally connected as they are not exactly flat, the steel is painted , and there is no material ( like aluminium paste ) to conduct heat in the gaps so the resistance to transfer is high
5 the steel frame plate is thin and can only absorb a small amount of heat before it gets too hot to touch
6 additionally the plate is in a unventilated area (doh) on my 1966 bsa the zener was on a finned zinc heatsing under the headlight ....
7 the spades on the RR are encased in a thermally insulated box
8 the surface area of contact between the spades and the amp connetor is about 10 square mm ( not 10 mm 2 )
9 due to the small surface area, vibration and heat from the current flow and the parasitic heat from the RR reaching the spade the amp connector will get hot
10 with the heat the crimping force on the amp connector will relax and allow less surface contact and possibly move
11 the reduction of surface contact will make the current run though points and start to pit the spade
12 once the pitting is well established the spade will arc on the amp connector producing large amounts of heat that scortch the multi connector and the wire insulation
13 once the scortching is well establshed the heat and resistance will work its way back through the wire and may act on the next connector block to the main harness of the stator
14 the wires being bundled ( a clearly idiotic idea ) once the insulation becomes plasticized will allow the cores to touch and create a massive short igniting the harness as i saw in holland just pre covid and mentioned on the forum
15 additionally to this the RR as its running hot for hours at a time will have the components degrade and fail of its own accord
16 the stator is now inside a hot engine whereas on earlier models like cbr1000f ( which i also have ) have an external air cooled alternator but with the same rubbish RR on the frame
so bascially this set up is as they would say a p.o.s and destined to fail

my understanding is that honda having suffered inummerable claims quickly changed to a mosfet system in year 3
with
separate bundles for incoming and outgoing current but still running to a bundle in the harness ( doh )
cylindrical connectors to the RR with more surface area and no possibility of arcing but still spade connectors to the harness ( they will never learn )
a larger RR with a wider contact patch to the frame
and a mosfet controller that doesnt dump the current to earth but "shaves it "as per demand many times per second
so the heat output and thermal waste is probably 80 pct less

so my next steps are to
1 check several makes of thyristor RR to see of they handle the current with less heat and problems ( one being an original honda one) these are all quite cheap so its not much money involved
2 check a claimed pattern shindengen FH one to see if the heat losses and current / voltage are within spec
3 as needed get the real fh 020aa to test that ( more expensive ) pehaps much better we will see...the proof of the pudding....
being an partly obc engineer then ill be sure of what is the truth and what is hearsay and anything i do will be entirely my own responsibility
i will of course report on the findings when the parts come in ( this may take some time they say due to covid ) if you believe that...
hope i didnt bore you too much
paul
 

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If shipping from the USA is temporarily down, just find out which new models use this R/R as original equipment and get one directly from the dealer (Yamaha, Polaris etc.). I'm sure the connectors are available too from specialty electrical suppliers. I ran a fh020aa on the bird, it didn't get warm enough to melt a stick of butter.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
so i got my digital ir thermometor out and did a check on the wiring and the RR and frame heat sink
ambient temp 26 deg today
when you start up the temp climbs up in about 4 minutes to 75 deg c and then after 10 minutes lowers to 65 deg c and stays there
this is standing still no ariflow but there are no fins so there would be no difference
the wiring going to the rr goes up to about 35 deg c and stays there
the temp inside the plug goes up to about 40 deg c
this seems to me to be rather high
i wonder if other people have done such a test?
paul
 

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Discussion Starter #16
so the next step befroe i get the other sample RR to test will be to build a heat sink that is worthy of the name for the existing RR to see if i can get it to run about 20 deg cooler
i ll get a block of alu plate about 10 mm thick and cut/ drill to size and fit it to the frame
all also get a pc heatsink with a little fan and see if that could fit
wait and see...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
so i have installed a lump of alu plate under the RR with heat transfer paste
the result is that its running about 10 deg cooler than before but still too hot for comfort
ill get a finned heatsink next week and test that
paul
 
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