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Discussion Starter #1
Hey All.

So, I'm gonna be that guy who asks another CCT question :help:

Having just bought my first BB, I seem to have landed myself straight away with CCT issues - Well, why not get these things outta the way I guess....

I have what seems to be symptomatic of a failing CCT - rattling, buzzing sound starting at 3k rpm or so, and continuing until 4.5k rpm. Not sure if I'm honest whether it stops above there or just becomes inaudible over increasing engine and exhaust noise.

There's a brief video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ylwOBZkWqU

Although the audio is poor tbh, phone quality. Enough to hear the noise I guess.

If anyone's willing to impart some knowledge, it'd be much appreciated. I'm unsure of:

1 - whether, as it seems I have an oem CCT fitted, it is always a case of needing replacement or can sometimes just be repaired? some mention inserting a longer bolt into the end to prevent a loose/worn shaft from vibrating? :confused:

2 - If replacement is the only way forward, whether manual or automatic is best? Manual certainly seems cheaper, but I am concerned that improper adjustment could do nasty things to my engine... Can they be set easily (without having the head off) and just left to do their job?

3 - whether it's imperative that it's sorted asap. Is a loose chain gonna trash anything else? or wear itself out swiftly?

Sorry to drag out a repeated topic, but most of the info I can find here (and elsewhere) seems kinda contradictory, and it'd be great to get some impartial thoughts on the best approach. I want to get her sorted and being a new bike to me (currently I have around 60 miles on her!) would love to feel that this was something I could tackle easily and get on to enjoying the riding-bit!
 

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Not an expert on the subject by any means but as I understand it the updated CCT has 2 green dots on it. My BB came with an upgraded one fitted when I bought it but if it were me I would get to it as soon as I could, the thought of the chain jumping teeth isn't very nice but I'm not sure if that's even a possibility. Others can weigh in on the gravity of the situation.

Anyway, I know you're in the UK but here's an option for getting one at not too bad a price: CCT Lifter Set $39 is about 39 quid now isn't it after brexit? Dunno what postage would cost but might be ok.

PM me if you go that route and postage is a killer, might be able to help you out.
 
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Whilst not definitive that sounds like the CCT to me.

1. Repairing a worn out CCT is a 'fiddlers paradise', for most owners replacement is the sensible option.

2. I'm a believer in the 'factory' spring loaded CCT for all normal use. I do have a manual unit fitted to my supercharged Bird but that was because we had 'issues' with the spring unloading when we were about to hit 200bhp. The manual unit is not 'fit and forget' you need to keep it adjusted which the auto unit does for you.

3. Whilst either a failing auto unit or a badly adjusted manual unit is not good, running the motor with signs of failure/bad adjustment is not a quick step to terminal problems - there is a plate that runs across the top of the cam sprockets that stops the cam chain from jumping. I ran my commuter Bird for the best part of a week (several hundred miles) with a bad rattle and it still lives - I now keep a spare CCT at home at all times.

I don't view a new CCT expensive Jaws Motorcycles and Motorcycle parts supplys (half way down the page), what I do find annoying though is that you can never predict failure by mileage. Looking at my service records the mileages I have achieved before changing the CCT
21K miles
41K miles
21K miles (changed for convenience at a big service, hadn't failed but I was commuting long distances 5 days a week)
and the current one has 22K miles on it and is as quiet as a new one .......

As far as I'm aware there are no more 'single green dot' CCT's out there and you certainly get the 'double green dot' model from JAWS if you go that route ......
 

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It's hard to tell for sure from your audio. Any idea how many miles are on the current CCT? The OEM cannot be "repaired." Basically you need to think of the CCT as a routine replacement part, much like brake pads, tires, etc.

My bikes original one went at about 19k miles and the replacement two-green-dot model at 50k miles. After the first swap, I took the advice given by others and bought another to have on hand. The second swap was done in a motel parking lot while on a trip and I was happy to have a new one stashed in a saddlebag. Took my husband and I 20 minutes total.

Some have gone with a manual adjuster, but I prefer the swap and go EOM version. While John's Bike Bits is a great vendor, here's another great vendor for you closer to home -- http://www.jaws-motorcycles.co.uk/birdservice.htm#cap
 

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Based on my experiance with my earlier bikes and cars I do agree with Duck. Best solution is to install the new CCT it is not that expensive and only the upgraded is available nowadays.
Reparing that thing is NOGO! The manual tensioner is simple and cheaper, but as Duck wrote, misadjustment can cause bigger problems.
For sure there are lot of owners here who are runnig couple tousend miles not changing the CCT unit, but my opinion is you should(I should) take care and mainaine the bike.

Put longer bolt into the CCT to prevent the intern staff against vibration "solution": I did it during a 5 days trip in the alps, because the sound started getting bad. I can recomend this only as a temporary solution because - the long screw you insert must be turned in by spinning the screw to the right (normal). But, if you turn the inside thing in the CCT to the right you actually LOOSEN the tensioner - even a quarter of rev on the screw is loosening the tensioner and for sure this will happen when the longer screw is touching the intern thing in the CCT. So the result might be worse. So you must be really accurate during adjustment.

Take care and I wish you wide roads!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the input all, much appreciated. I will go with the general consensus I think, and buy an upgraded automatic unit.

It seems from what I can tell that this is a case of:

Whip the fairing off

Unbolt old CCT

Clean off remains of old gasket

Bolt on new CCT with new gasket

Pull out the pin retaining the sprung-prong bit so that it pops out

Put fairing back on and go for a ride

Is it really that simple? Seems too good to be true... :rolleyes:
 

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Original CCT on both my Birds,
75,000 Kays on the first one,
70,000 kays on the second one,
When the motor rattles, I change the oil, The rattle goes, Inbuilt oil change indicator,
I only use car oil,
I did buy a new CCT for my original Bird, But its still sitting on the shelf,
 

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....

Is it really that simple? Seems too good to be true... :rolleyes:
yes it is ..... but removing the old gasket can be a bit of a pain, you have a nice open hole to the motor and if the gasket is well stuck (quite normal in my experience) you end up taking it off in little pieces, which you don't want debris to go in the motor ... so be careful and shove something clean in the hole to form a temporary seal it if you have to resort to 'gasket scraping'.
 

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Thanks for the input all, much appreciated. I will go with the general consensus I think, and buy an upgraded automatic unit.

It seems from what I can tell that this is a case of:

Whip the fairing off

Unbolt old CCT

Clean off remains of old gasket

Bolt on new CCT with new gasket

Pull out the pin retaining the sprung-prong bit so that it pops out

Put fairing back on and go for a ride

Is it really that simple? Seems too good to be true... :rolleyes:
Don't forget to keep the old sealing bolt (goes into the thread the pin is pulled out of) from the old cct to put into the new one, the new one doesn't come with it
 

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I've taken mine apart, cleaned the insides, rewound the spring properly, reinstalled it and 25 000km later it is still quiet. Not too difficult to do also, I believe it is worth a try.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Well, my Saturday morning was spent getting a little more personal with the new bike. Or a least that was the plan...

There's always work to be done if you've bought a used motorcycle, even if it's in great shape, there's still things to be checked and tweaked and double checked and so on. Having swiftly discovered an empty coolant reservoir (not very reassuring of the previous owner's application of the required care and attention:thumbd:) I thought it was overdue time to have the fairing off and give her a once-over. Have a shifty at the soon to be replaced CCT while I'm at it, having ordered a replacement unit from Jaws.

Hmmm....

Two rounded-out fairing bolts. Wonderful...

First try with allen-key no good. Second try, tapping in a torx-bit and turning also no good. Too far gone. What kind of bloody animal feels the need to tighten something holding a plastic panel on like it holds the very core of the bike together!? :mad:

Soaked in WD40 and gave it a while, tried again, trying not to wince whilst I applied a hammer to tap in a larger hex-bit. Still no joy.

So, as the sun was shining and my mood was waning, I decided the rest of my Saturday was more profitably spent getting to know the bike in a different way. Went for a ride out across Dartmoor, a favorite route of mine, dodging sheep lying on sun-warmed tarmac and ponies wandering at will into the road in order to make the most of glorious twists and turns to be blasted out of onto undulating straights that are too long not to let the bike stretch it's legs :rolleyes:

A very fine way to spend a few hours, and I feel a little more in tune with the bike for every mile covered. It's a very different beast to my VFR indeed.

Any pointers on removing rounded-out fairing bolts? My last resort is to take a dremel or similar and cut a slot for a hefty flat screwdriver, but if there are other options then I'd happily try them first! The thought of grinding at them doesn't fill me with pleasure :fear:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hey All

So, a shiny new CCT, and all is well with the bird (well, I say "all", there's a long list of things that I want to do, but the horrible cam chain rattle is no more!)

One thing I don't understand though - the one I removed seems to be fine! :hmm:

At least so far as I can tell... Can someone help me out with understanding why the fix worked when the replaced component doesn't appear to be faulty? I guess I must be missing something, I'm just not sure what. Video here to explain...

https://youtu.be/he07a-m1vek
 

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Nice vid!

Good question. You obviously understand the workings of the CCT so you will understand that it is totally reliant on spring pressure to make it 'step up to the next notch'. What I noticed from your vid was how easy it was for you to wind the plunger back on the old CCT. If you had done the same with the new one I expect you would have easily noticed how much harder it was to wind back.

If you look inside a CCT you will see that for a period of time the ideal position (based on perfect tension of the chain) can actually be between 'teeth' (there is a space between the locking positions) now if the spring is weak it will take the 'easy option' and stay in the slightly un-tensioned position (rattly motor) a stronger (newer) spring will take the 'difficult option' and click up a tooth (quiet motor).

Now the engineer in me says 'so why didn't Honda just fit a really strong spring that has plenty of 'reserve' for when the spring starts to loose its spring? Well would you prefer to change a CCT or the cam chain? Personally I would prefer to change a few CCTs and have a cam chain that lasts @100K miles :thumb:

The other question that springs to my mind is 'so if the spring in a used CCT is not up to the job of pushing the plunger up a notch when the motor is running (if you insert a screwdriver when the motor is running and try to wind the plunger into the motor you can feel what a hammering it takes) why doesn't the CCT simply take up the slack when the motor is at rest?' As your vid showed when the plunger has moved out it won't go back in so the ratchet mechanism is still working. Well when you removed the old CCT you probably noticed the CCT pushing itself away from the block as you undid the screws (sometimes good sealant on the gasket will hold it in place and you have to give the CCT a tap with a soft hammer to release it from the block) so the old CCT still has some spring tension as shown by it pushing away from the block ..... just not enough to put more tension on the already tensioned cam chain. Basically tension remains on the cam chain no matter if the motor is running at high speeds or at rest.


Anyway, I noticed what appeared to be your young one appear on the vid, does he/she understand what you were doing ...... or is there a view being fostered that talking to boxes is just normal :loony:

Hang on I've just noticed how much I have typed on the simple item that is the CCT, perhaps I should look closer to home for :loony:
 

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Springs get old and weak, They may still be the same length as the original, But dont have the same stiffness, So lose their effectiveness, Dont work as good as the new one,
 
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hey deadman, changed that to reflect us more, :eyebrows: :rotfl::rotfl:

"Things get old and weak, They may still be the same length as the original, But dont have the same stiffness, So lose their effectiveness, Dont work as good as they used to" at least that's what the missus said. :crap: :smilebig: :D

muzz.
 

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hey deadman, changed that to reflect us more, :eyebrows: :rotfl::rotfl:

"Things get old and weak, They may still be the same length as the original, But dont have the same stiffness, So lose their effectiveness, Dont work as good as they used to" at least that's what the missus said. :crap: :smilebig: :D

muzz.
I know, I know, I just can't help it!
I would like to blame the vast number of drugs I'm having to eat at present....... but no, I've been like this for my whole life. :rolleyes:
 
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I had the same problem on mine, the L/H side fairing had a fastener that was like yours and the only way I could find to fix it was to take the R/H side fairing off which gave me access to the nut that the damaged fastener screwed into, so undid that and panel off and fitted a new fastener and all is well. Agree, not much point using a huge amount of torque to hold a plastic panel on.
Good luck, hope this helps.
 

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The impact screwdriver is my friend for this type of situations. But even if you get it out it will best be replaced.

So basically I would try to get it out with minimal risk to damage the fairing & nut. A small horizontal cut followed by impact screwdriver should do the job. Good luck.
 

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Tapping with a shissel under an angle may work too, but the risk of slipping and damaging the fairing is big, so I wouldn't do that.
 
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