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Discussion Starter #41
New problem: Clutch lever too far for my small fingers...

I had no chance to test drive my bike yet just because I couldn't yet.
The only small test drive in the private parking make disturbed me regarding how far is le clutch lever from my small figers.
I needed to keep my figer straight to grab the clutch lever, so uncomfortable I wondered.

So I focus on the lever, the distancd adjusting nut... the maybe overbended lever due to accident...
I also discovered the rubber cap protecting the push rod is broken (need to buy new one).
I dismounted finally the clutch lever to see what I can do.

Surprise the bushing (brass material) in the lever is drilled through!

The steel pushing rod is touching and making a hole in the aluminium lever.
This bike has been running most the time in Paris, using a lot the clutch in trafic jam I can deduct as the brass bushing is worn bore through.
20200624_180012.jpg

I was in the middle of COVID-19 lock-done, I decided to make two of this bushing from recycled metal... instead of ordering them with no delivery date secured...
20200625_193420.jpg
boring lock-done...

I also made a new newbie mistake...
My bended clutch lever, I wanted to unbending it to get it closer to my figers...
Big mistake there: Original lever are made from Alpax or Silicium Aluminium... bright broken aluminium, not bendable or very limited...

No alternative, ordered second hand Honda Clutch lever and also cheap machined AliExpress short levers.

We will come back later to theses levers as I still can progressin the rebuild and test drive with the broken lever and the new homemade bushing.

Next post Test drive and problem of clutch slipping...
 

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Discussion Starter #42
New problem: Slipping clutch.

Got my dead XX December 2019, solved some major problems slowly due to COVID-19 lock-done, insurance and paperworks done, I can on road test drive with minimum fairing to detect more problems... we are beginning July 2020 now.
Minimum servicing done to XX to allow this first road test:
- Engine "washing" oil filled (car 100% synthetic oil 10-40w).
-Break pads
  • air filter just cleaned (K&N ordered).
  • all fluids changed (cooling and Dual CBS).
First ride arround the block of course if needed to push back ;)
Very easy turns because tyres are hard... DOT 2003 Front, 2004 Rear... hard plastic, no more rubber feeling.

Easy ride, listening, smelling, felling, looking for any signs of problems...
Worm up slowly, cool drive no fast rev.
Engine so smooth.
Broken clutch lever still too far from my short fingers but works fine.
Not much grip on new pads because too much worn discs.
Temperature up until radiator fan running no cooling liquid boiling out.
After 10 minutes enlarging block to block, running almost normal city speed, started to see smoke in the miroirs... and feel the clutch slipping at 5th gear 2k rpm light throttle opening. The tachy show 2000rpm jumped to 2400 rpm without speed up...
Ride back to parking straight away! No more test today.

Smoke... only one explanation: burning all the no burned gasoline during my 4-->2 cylinders problem and because restart the engine staying in a parking for 15 years...

So... clutch slipping...
Cbrxx forum search keywords "slipping clutch".
Whoaouh many solutions suggestions:
-Receptor cylinder locked
-Push rod clean up
-worn clutch friction discs/pads
-Out of spec springs mesurement, HBC reinforced springs
-...

Some forumers said no no no XX clutch is rock solid, 150 000 kms, no signs of fatigue.
Some forumers said no no no, never ever use synthetic oil. No no no, car oil doesn't contain friction additives as motorcycle wet clutch needed them. No no no use only mineral oil, buy it from Honda or the most expensive one...

Felt stupid newbie again, failed again, made 100 mistakes again...
  • I filled with 100% synthetic car engine oil (in my mind to clean the engine before refilling motorcycle oil later).
  • my XX been used in Paris in trafic jam, clutch very tired (remember my drilled through clutch lever push rod bushing).
I was in the doubt again.
I can not open the clutch receptor cylinder cover to check the rod or open the clutch cover to check the disc pads or springs length as I do not have any cover gaskets and COVID-19 lock-done will delay again.

So i decided few easy options:
  • valid or invalid the mineral/dedicated motorcycle oil by purging my 5km new synthetic car oil.
  • order the clutch cover gasket and HBC reinforced springs (both acceptable price).
Road Test drive 2:
New mineral motor oil in, easy start, after few minutes tried to detect slipping clutch at engine not at normal run temperature yet... no slipping (what!!! Oil affects that much???!!!).
After a 10minutes ride, engine warmed-up, slipping started again. Not much if really easy throttle but still there at modest throttle opening at last gear.
No no no, finally oil is not that important but still don't understand why...
But clearly one new input : slipping clutch only at warmed up engine Temperature even with mineral motorcycle oil.
My first road ride, I ran so slow never noticed/pushed to clutch slipping at low temperature, only at wormed.

That case was tough to find out.

Wanna play, post your suggestions
 

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You might need to go thru 2-3 oil changes to purge the clutch of wrong oil.
One thing to remember about the clutch lever.....aftermarket levers or damaged originals may not actuate the micro switch that allows you to start the bike in gear. If the bike stalls in traffic in gear, you wont be able to start it in an emergency. This can be either embarrassing, or dangerous. For me this was the former. Stalled bike at very low speed, couldn't start it, fell over.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Mister fizzy
I can hear your "wrong" oil purge but I am not sure modern API graded oil could damage our motorcycle emgine of clutch grip.
Understanding the API engine oil classification or specification is nice compare to 100% sheep follower of some advertising.
But we all have the choice, and we assum our choice consequences.
For my slipping clutch, deep in me, I believe the XX clutch is famous for it legendary durability. This durability is mainly due to the design, less than oil filled in. HONDA designed it so solid... they managed to reduce the number of discs without any troubles.

Regarding the aftermarket clutch levers.
I agree with you about good operability of the microswitch allowing the emergence engine fire, gear engaged.
All bikers: side stand not out, what ever your gear box speed engaged, you have to be able to fire the engine with the clutch lever pulled.
If you can only fire the engine, lever pulled and neutral gear box... your ltch lever switch is uncorrectly adjusted or switch touch worn...
I don't have such opinion regarding the choice of after market of original levers as soon as the above condition of emergency engine fire working.

I love my XX all original but some time... comfy seat or lower seat to touch the ground with the foot is not jugeable.
I felt very uncomfortable with le long and large origin lever.
I had problem of worn microswitch touch.

I listed this trick in my future post from my summary ;)

I haven't done yet with my pro lem of clutch slipping.
 

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Don't want to start an oil war, so, as you say, choose your own oil.
As far as the clutch slipping, I don't know why, except that my earlier suggestion of the banana in the tailpipe was never refuted. I have been wrong before.

 

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Now Patoo

DO NOT RUN THE BIKE UNTILL YOU CHANGE THE OIL AND FILTER!!!!
The symptoms you described is the classic FPR failure. It will dumpraw fuel into the crankcase via 2 and 3. It will also circulate through the whole oiling system. If you run it for long you will destroy the bearings. Use a cheap normal oil and a cheap oil filter. Pull the plugs and use the starter in short 5 to 10 second bursts for about a minute or so then. Dump the oil again and change out to the filter and oil your going to run and ride it.
 

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If you run an automotive oil it probably has friction modifiers in it. This will kill a wet clutch very quickly. There's 2 ways to fix it replace the clutch fiber discs
Or put seafoam in it at the prescribed amount on the cans directions. Run thr bike up to temp drain the oil change the filter
Repeat that cycle again, then put a non automotive oil in it something that is JASO II certified. Or your going to be back right where you started.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
View attachment 129919 OK Beestoys. Hear you.
Will drain again my oil even I never drove the bike during the FPR fail as I could run the engine except some attempts during tests.
I haven't yet the insurance to drive on road too.

Now back to my clutch slip, only wormed engine, with car or motorcycle oil.
Can't open the boths engines covers (no cover gaskets to back-up).

Purged again clutch master/receptor cylinders from DOT4 fluid.

Road tested again, again sliping only hot not cold engine.

I back-up everything during my car drive back home from work place (45min) to analyse where could be the problem.
-not sliping cold
-sliping hot
-slip on any oil
-no access to the clutch and receptor
cylinder
- and still this too far lever for my short figers... whatever the adjustment position (1 to 5) I select on the clutch lever.

The key is cold vs hot.
Temperature doesn't really affect the clutch friction pads, never heard about that but temperature affect any hydraulic circuit... because liquid thermal expansion.
Never heard clutch slipping because of temperature "soften" the springs load ever.

Should be thermal expansion on hydraulic, causing sliping on mechanic.

How the hydraulic works ? (I was thinking in my car)
Meca: [Pull the lever, push the push rod, push the master cylinder], Hydro: {compress the fluid, displace the fluid, fluid move the receptor cylinder}, Meca: [push the clutch rod, compress the springs, moves the spring cap, release the friction discs... clutch slipping].

I got it!
The heat expanses the fluid, the over volume should flow out through the drain hole in the fluid tank! But this is inefficient, why?
Because I made a mistake again?
I dismounted the clutch lever push rod, changed the homemade brass bushing in the lever.
I probably mount upside-down the push rod, which is assymetric length, as a result, the master cylinder is not in the position to bleed the over-volume of heated fluid.

20200625_195039.jpg

The fluid has no way to go... heated overpressure will apply a tiny move to the clutch rod,.... finally make the clutch slip but only a medium load when engine warmed up the fluid. This is why, cold I never succeeded to slip the clutch.

Ok tomorrow I will put the lever push rod in the correct position!

I was sure about the root cause when I arrived home (my bike is been repaired in a room at office...).

Will see next day!
 

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Hi Patoo
I tried for testing purposes a low cost " mofset" RR bit ot was useless as it gsve out 16 v and overheating like any thyristor one would
Have you checked that your stabilized output is 13 5 v ?
Does yours have the proper output and not overheat?
Paul
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Hi Paul
I did the test at first installation a month again (results as posted in the dedicated subject).
By I was, 13,3V not key in (measured with my lithium battery built-in voltmeter, confirmed by my Flux multimeter).
Cold auto-starter at 2000rpm, I was approx 13.5V.
I admit I did not realize exhaustive test according to Haynes book full heated, fan on, head lamp on (measurement conditions).
Some forumers warned me about "cheap" MOSFET will fail and run all...
So I am looking for voltmeter display to mount on the BB to have a permanent surveil of the R/R output.
Now I almost check at each ride or twice a week since 4weeks I swapped to Cheap MOSFET, the built-in voltmeter of the battery to check the battery voltage after parking the BB.
I read 13.3V key off, each single time I check my battery.

Yesterday evening I drove with a passenger at night, 80kms, at arrived at home, I checked again... 13.3V

Right now I am purging my engine oil (advise from Beestoys after my FPR sending gasoline to cyl 2-3) drain all night untill the week end to refill with 100% synthetic Repsol 10W40 4strokes motorcycle oil certified API SN / JASO T 903:2016 MA2 (no oil war ;) ...).

After that I will perform a full exhaustive test of the R/R output again (latest by the end of the week end).

Keep you informed on the cheap MOSFET (lucky untill now looks like no branded is not consistant for 15€) .
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Ouch error during my writing, lose a big long story telling about the slipping clutch, the day after my suspect of root cause.

So I was so sure about my logical analysis of the slipping clutch due to upside down mount of the lever push rod (my fault) when I replaced the homemade brass bushing.

So after the ofice time finished, I joined quick the BB to remount correctly the push rod.

Easy dismount but the push rod is impossible to be mounted upside-down, the bushing side is smaller diameter than the master piston side diameter.
I was sure this is the root cause.

I back-up all inputs again... locally analyse again... no way should be the correct root cause (no return of expansed fluid back to tank, pressure can only expanse in the receptor cylinder means acting on the clutch.
Oh what about my "too far clutch lever for my short fingers), this input makes me so uncomfortable... in fact the lever is far to grab but once I touch the lever, it start to act to the clutch at the very beginning of the pull. I to my colleagues, the lever act in the clutch from the 1 mm of pull.

OH my gosh!!!!! No pre-compression gap on le lever pulling!!! The famous 20-30mm of lever pulling before feeling the resistance of spring compression!!!
BLEED HOLE YOU ASS#@/€!!!!

This "too far lever for my short fingers" input was there since the beginning, I never related this to the clutch slipping but no bleeding expansed fluid back to the reservoir, pressure rise with fluid expansion, only escape for the pressure is clutch receptor cylinder= slipng clutch also means no pre-compression lever travel before closing as no the bleed hole.

Easy and quick opening the clutch fluid reservoir, remove the splash deflector plate which cover the bleed hole to avoid projection during pre-pression travel, looking for the bleed hole status.
20200708_193940.jpg


Oh so tiny, how to see the drill through bleed hole???
20200708_192909.jpg

So dark, can't see anything but again, the inputs can only conclude to this bleed hole blocked.

So trust yourself, dig dig dig with a tiny needle (stainless wire)
Dig dig dig again, should be that!
20200708_192831.jpg

Finally, the needle felt deep suddendly!
Bleed hole unlocked!!! Alleluia!!!
20200708_193752.jpg

Can you see now the tiny diamerer 0.2mm hole, above the main drain hole?

Now a quick pull on the lever, without the splash deflector plate, I get a strong and thin jet of dot4 out of the reservoir directly to yhe floor which I can't do 10 minutes ago.
Now the lever acts on the clutch spring only after 20mm of travel... the lever is not too far for my normal fingers finally.

Can't wait to confirm that finding on a road test now.
10 minutes later, on the road test, engine warmed, big push on the throttle, no clutch slipping!

Finally, clutch slip problem solved!
No need to remove receptor cylinder, no pushing rod cleaning, no clutch carter opening, no need to use the brand new reinforce HBC cbrXX clutch spring set.

My 44 000 kms BB badly used in Paris, so much abuse on the clutch (brass bushing drilled through), means the clutch on my BB worked very hard previously, but the legendary XX clutch is rock solid!
Except my bleed hole blocked causing slipping, I can confirm it now.

What is my next problem???
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Hi again. Busy at work and also made some cosmetics on the BB (detail later).

Listening to the experimented forumers advices; BeeToys and Fizzy, I changed my oil and filter again after my FPR diaphram failure draining gasoline.

Put decent Oil in it, 8.90€ per bottle 1L (API : SN and JASO : MA2). + HiFlo HF303
The simple oil filter removal tool is better than all others I tried.
20200911_201227.jpg


Next post:
Voltage Test for CbrPaul with my cheap no name FH020AA MOSFET R/R ( I detailed previously).
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Hi cbrPaul

Sorry, took longuer than expected perform the hand book test with my Cheap FH020AA R/R.

BB elect set-up :
  • Stock stator
  • 14 Ah Lithium-ion battery from Ali.
  • Ali FH020AA 17euros with plug & Play cabling in case I need to go back to stock R/R
  • test performed after 65km ride, in around Paris (50-100 km/h), weather sunshine 26degC. Head Lamp on during ride.
The temp gauge was high, fan stated immediately after BB on stand engine idle (which is the correct test condition, fan runing +headlamp).
Profesional multimeter Metrix MX350.
FH020AA aluminum temperature : can't keep the fingers on it, my battery fully charged I guess the R/R short circuts the 90% of the stator power to the ground.
All figures with Fan on, headlamp on
Engine idle : 13.3V
Engine 4000rpm: 13.4V
Engine 5000rpm: 13.5V
Engine back to idle: 13.3V

13.3V is always the voltage I got on my battery since I installed the Cheap FH020AA MOSFET R/R.

For 18euros, I just ordered another FH020AA MOSFET R/R from Ali again (a little different aluminum mold compared to actual one).
I wanted to test another R/R if the hot temperature is normal or not (I guess, yes, I guess more battery fulled, more the R/R need to ground the power = more heat).
I will have stock R/R as back-up, MOSFET 1 and soon MOSFET 2.
20200812_220637.jpg

MOSFET 1 in test since 12/Aug/2020.
20200911_172145.jpg

Idle 1
20200911_172331.jpg

4000 rpm
20200911_172343.jpg

5000rpm
20200911_172353.jpg

Back to idle again.

I hope this cheap solution will be safe.

Next post: some cosmetics ( sticker and stator cover repainted)
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Stickers (personal choice) and final cosmetics, trace of my BB previous rough life (Stator carter scratched).

I am so happy with my BB and the new life but still on detail, the scratched carter.

Wanted for my BB, a nice golden carter.
Hot hot hot the carter...

I decided to go with high temperature metal repair polyester-20/+120°C advertised.
It is a metal powder+liquid polyester to mix and apply. Sader metal repair.
I paid 8.90euros in French LeroyMerlin drugstore.
Screenshot_20200911-210414_Gallery.jpg

For the paint, no way to find something close to the stock anodized golden, sand and copper color...
I decided to high temperature (800°C advertised) paint for exhaust pipe.
I paid 18 euros freight included, arrived in 2 days from Ebay.
Screenshot_20200911-210959_eBay.jpg

From the picture, it looks good.

What wrong with my stator carter, pictures:
20200810_131856.jpg

Close up on the carter...
20200908_084803.jpg


Reconstruction:
Metal repair, raw.
20200908_221128.jpg


Metal filling (10minutes after apply)
20200908_233302.jpg


Gross and fine p800 sand paper fishing, pre-contract paint, p800, percolating... ready for final paint.
20200909_023906.jpg


And finally 2 layers of Gold high temp paint...
20200909_210713.jpg


Really decent looking but... too much gold... let it go, it is much better than the scratched looking.

But finally, what do you think? Compare to Upper same BB picture with the scratched carter.
I luv u BB
20200911_142734.jpg


Next post... back to my rebuild story what was the next problem?...
 

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Patoo, "I hope this cheap solution will be safe ". To make it safer, you need a voltmeter permanently mounted to the dash. Any voltage spikes, 16V or more, you need to know about right away, as you could fry the battery or maybe the ECU.
 

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I would also be suspect that voltage should have reached 14 VDC minimum. I suspect either you have already hurt the stator or that R/R is giving up voltage efficiency during the conversion from AC to DC. Inefficiency typically turns to heat.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Previous owner abused the BB...
During my first disassembling for the rebuild I was scared...
How the hell someone can abuse that much a bike...
There is no world for it.
Be careful, graphic shocking images...
Resized_20200117_122232_8773.jpeg

WTF... what is this wiring ???!!!
IMG-20200624-WA0001.jpeg

Way to much clutch lever brass bushing
IMG-20200712-WA0002.jpeg

4.0mm thickness front rotors but wait for it...
IMG-20200911-WA0008.jpg

Front right... berk!
IMG-20200911-WA0011.jpg

Front Left, same dirt.
IMG-20200911-WA0010.jpg

Front Left full metal pad... no more compound
IMG-20200911-WA0012.jpg

Front Right full metal to metal pads... no way!
IMG-20200911-WA0013.jpg

Dot4 dark pool
IMG-20200911-WA0005.jpg

Deep black crude oil.
IMG-20200911-WA0007.jpg

First time visit there... wait for it...

Stay tuned...
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Patoo, "I hope this cheap solution will be safe ". To make it safer, you need a voltmeter permanently mounted to the dash. Any voltage spikes, 16V or more, you need to know about right away, as you could fry the battery or maybe the ECU.
Waiting for delivery permanent Voltage/Temperature/Clock.
little device to fit on top of the dash, behind the windscreen.
Screenshot_20200911-223012_AliExpress.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I would also be suspect that voltage should have reached 14 VDC minimum. I suspect either you have already hurt the stator or that R/R is giving up voltage efficiency during the conversion from AC to DC. Inefficiency typically turns to heat.
During my stator repair, checked my stator with Ohmeter.
0.3 ohm all 3 coils. No pass to the steel blades/ground.
I had one with 0.5 ohm and grounded with black cooked oil stuff on the coil wires...
 

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It can cold check good. But running you want a minimum 50 VAC on each leg within 2 to 3 VAC for each phase. If you don't have both your losing the stator.
 
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