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Hi everyone, in another topic Digito mentioned he switched from an EU to an USA ECU on his 2001 FI Bird and that he could feel 'those 164 vs 152 hp really exist'. I can't blame him, because that misinformation is found everywhere, and Wikipedia doesn't help in this regard either. So I replied with an explanation, but let me also set the record straight here, for google and forum search purposes. I replied the following:

When Honda started selling the carburated Blackbird (in Europe) they rated it at 164 horsepower or 121 kW.
With the introduction of FI in 1999, they again rated the Blackbird at 164 horsepower and 121 kW but this time they added (DIN) behind the 164 horsepower, so 164 hp (DIN).
Then in 2000, a year BEFORE the introduction of the European wide version with catalytic converter, so the SAME SPEC bike as in 1999, they gave two ratings: 164 hp / 121 kW (DIN) and 152 hp / 112 kW (95/1/EC). This is where the 152 hp originates, not because it is European, not because of a cat, just because it is a different metric, like DIN, BHP, STD, SAE etc.
In 2001 they dropped the 164 (DIN) all together and the press info only mentions 152 hp (95/1/EC). From this year onwards all European bikes have a catalytic converter, but Honda claimed that by tweaking some stuff, the hp and torque remained the same between the non-cat FI ('99-'00) and cat FI bikes ('01-'07).

If I'm not mistaking the USA never introduced a Bird with cat, and they might indeed have a different mapping that gives a different sensation during acceleration, but not one with 12 hp extra! Also a 2001 FI-cat Bird might indeed Dyno different than a 2000 FI Bird, BUT THEY BOTH HAVE A CLAIMED 164 AND 152 HP!!!

When I explained the above on a Dutch forum once, someone replied with some general user experiences. The non-cat FI Birds ('99-'00) are supposed to be the most powerful, followed by the carbies ('96-'98) and finally the digidash and catted Birds '(01-'07).

Wikipidia claims the following for 2002, which I don't see mentioned in the 2002 press kit, but anyway:
New EFI mapping to comply with emission standards[SUP][which?][/SUP] and eliminate abrupt throttle response at low speeds.Manufacturer's power and torque figures reduced to 152 hp (113.3 kW) and 87.8 ft-lb (119 Nm)
This seems wrong on many levels, but what I do know is that when I first rode my 2003 FI Bird, it felt less powerful or less torque rich on acceleration than my 1997 Bird. After some time my conclusion was that this indeed had to do with throttle response, the carbie being more on-off in the first degrees of twist, while the FI was more gradual and thus gave more control, but when you twist it wide open, it goes just as fast as the carbie.

It would be interesting to put well-maintained, completely stock Birds (with new chain and tires) on the same dyno from each iteration, but I am willing to believe non-catted Birds are the strongest stock. But if you put a full exhaust system and PC3 on a catted Bird you also end up with up to 160 rwhp, so I've heard. I also know of someone who maintains many many Blackbirds and has owned many as well, and he once rode a 100 hp French version without even noticing the missing horsepower. So while I don't doubt that the bike felt different to Digito after the EU to USA ECU swap, I remain a bit skeptical :)

By the way, the German (G-type) catted version for 2000 did have a lower hp figure, but that was still 160 hp / 118 kW (DIN) and 150 hp / 110 kW (95/1/EC).

Anyone care to chime in on the horsepower debate? No need to mention the Silver ones are the fastest though, we all know that already. :cool:
I had a 2000 1100xx and then a 2002 1100xx , it was day and night difference, the 164hp 2000 would have your eye balls sink at the bottom of your head on take off till ''cut off speed'' the 2002 1100xx was a boring machine compare to the 2000 and I mean realy boring.
 

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The financial side of this deal is none of my business but only you can decide if losing a deposit is a good idea. Also, we don't know anything about the condition of either machine except the mileage and year.
Your comparison of 2 blackbirds, a 2000 and a 2002 doesn't sound right TBH. Are you sure the 2002 wasn't a 100hp restricted French model?
 

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Ooh zombie thread!
Mine was measured on a dyno making 135 at the back wheel. 1999 XXY model, carb with Micron silencers.
The graph is here, pause it :)
 

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Hi everyone, in another topic Digito mentioned he switched from an EU to an USA ECU on his 2001 FI Bird and that he could feel 'those 164 vs 152 hp really exist'. I can't blame him, because that misinformation is found everywhere, and Wikipedia doesn't help in this regard either. So I replied with an explanation, but let me also set the record straight here, for google and forum search purposes. I replied the following:

When Honda started selling the carburated Blackbird (in Europe) they rated it at 164 horsepower or 121 kW.
With the introduction of FI in 1999, they again rated the Blackbird at 164 horsepower and 121 kW but this time they added (DIN) behind the 164 horsepower, so 164 hp (DIN).
Then in 2000, a year BEFORE the introduction of the European wide version with catalytic converter, so the SAME SPEC bike as in 1999, they gave two ratings: 164 hp / 121 kW (DIN) and 152 hp / 112 kW (95/1/EC). This is where the 152 hp originates, not because it is European, not because of a cat, just because it is a different metric, like DIN, BHP, STD, SAE etc.
In 2001 they dropped the 164 (DIN) all together and the press info only mentions 152 hp (95/1/EC). From this year onwards all European bikes have a catalytic converter, but Honda claimed that by tweaking some stuff, the hp and torque remained the same between the non-cat FI ('99-'00) and cat FI bikes ('01-'07).

If I'm not mistaking the USA never introduced a Bird with cat, and they might indeed have a different mapping that gives a different sensation during acceleration, but not one with 12 hp extra! Also a 2001 FI-cat Bird might indeed Dyno different than a 2000 FI Bird, BUT THEY BOTH HAVE A CLAIMED 164 AND 152 HP!!!

When I explained the above on a Dutch forum once, someone replied with some general user experiences. The non-cat FI Birds ('99-'00) are supposed to be the most powerful, followed by the carbies ('96-'98) and finally the digidash and catted Birds '(01-'07).

Wikipidia claims the following for 2002, which I don't see mentioned in the 2002 press kit, but anyway:
New EFI mapping to comply with emission standards[SUP][which?][/SUP] and eliminate abrupt throttle response at low speeds.Manufacturer's power and torque figures reduced to 152 hp (113.3 kW) and 87.8 ft-lb (119 Nm)
This seems wrong on many levels, but what I do know is that when I first rode my 2003 FI Bird, it felt less powerful or less torque rich on acceleration than my 1997 Bird. After some time my conclusion was that this indeed had to do with throttle response, the carbie being more on-off in the first degrees of twist, while the FI was more gradual and thus gave more control, but when you twist it wide open, it goes just as fast as the carbie.

It would be interesting to put well-maintained, completely stock Birds (with new chain and tires) on the same dyno from each iteration, but I am willing to believe non-catted Birds are the strongest stock. But if you put a full exhaust system and PC3 on a catted Bird you also end up with up to 160 rwhp, so I've heard. I also know of someone who maintains many many Blackbirds and has owned many as well, and he once rode a 100 hp French version without even noticing the missing horsepower. So while I don't doubt that the bike felt different to Digito after the EU to USA ECU swap, I remain a bit skeptical :)

By the way, the German (G-type) catted version for 2000 did have a lower hp figure, but that was still 160 hp / 118 kW (DIN) and 150 hp / 110 kW (95/1/EC).

Anyone care to chime in on the horsepower debate? No need to mention the Silver ones are the fastest though, we all know that already. :cool:
I had a 2000 blackbird that was so freaking powerfull that at 7500rpm I had to let the throtle cause my girlfriend could not hang on to me anymore, the acceleration was lineare non stop till '' cut off'' on my 2002 blackbird their was a flat spot in acceleration between 5000 and 6000 rpms ''so frustrating '' and the acceleration at any speed or rpm was not ''mind blowing'' as it was on the 2000 model. Beleive me their is a difference that you will notice right away. Take your machine from 20kph to ''cutoff '' speed and tell me how you feel.
 

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I had a 2000 blackbird that was so freaking powerfull that at 7500rpm I had to let the throtle cause my girlfriend could not hang on to me anymore, the acceleration was lineare non stop till '' cut off'' on my 2002 blackbird their was a flat spot in acceleration between 5000 and 6000 rpms ''so frustrating '' and the acceleration at any speed or rpm was not ''mind blowing'' as it was on the 2000 model. Beleive me their is a difference that you will notice right away. Take your machine from 20kph to ''cutoff '' speed and tell me how you feel.
Dont forget the 2000 164hp made 0to 60 mph in 2.4 sec and the 2002 152hp made it in 3 secondes so stop kiding yourselves the ''cat'' has put a end to that wonderfull freedom machine that was the ''non cat'' model. I know I had a 2000 and later a 2002 , I know what I am talking about.
 

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Can you be 100% certain there wasn't a running issue on your old 2002?
Yes because on the specs a 2000 accelerates 0 to 100 kmph in 2.4 sec and on the 2002 it takes 3 sesondes so that does not lie plus read my other comments that I have put on. Your question is fair but it is not the answer. Personaly I find all this ridiculus amateur talk to be coming from a bunch of ''wantabes'' experts with no freaking driving experience and a ''sissy'' attitude: get on your bike and see what it can do by yourself.
 

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If you want to compare xx models as to which is the best or fastest it all becomes so irrelevant when you ride bike's that have power to wheelie at 200kph+ most modern liter sport bike's. I have a 2005 bird really nice and fast dual carbon yoshi, but guys these bike's are so old now. I have a 2012 hyabusa as well it makes the XX feels so outdated. but the XX has more than enough to bring a smile on every time I ride it.
 

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The financial side of this deal is none of my business but only you can decide if losing a deposit is a good idea. Also, we don't know anything about the condition of either machine except the mileage and year.
Your comparison of 2 blackbirds, a 2000 and a 2002 doesn't sound right TBH. Are you sure the 2002 wasn't a 100hp restricted French model?
No Fizzy beleive me in Canada we dont have ''castrated '' machines, the thing is past 5500 to 6000 rpms it would start to accelerate good time but never like the 2000 year model, the best thing for all of you searchers would be to get on the expressway drive a 2000 model at 4000rpms then ''floor it'' and tell me what it strats felling like once at 7500rpm, then take a ''cat version'' and do the same surely it is not freaking below zero weather all over the planet so someone is able to do the test very shortly , that will put an end to your religious questioning of the difference between 164hp and 152hp. tell me how your eyeballs will feel and how hard you wil be holding on to these handle bars, if you have you girlfriend on board tell me at what rpm you lost her off the bike.
 

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If you want to compare xx models as to which is the best or fastest it all becomes so irrelevant when you ride bike's that have power to wheelie at 200kph+ most modern liter sport bike's. I have a 2005 bird really nice and fast dual carbon yoshi, but guys these bike's are so old now. I have a 2012 hyabusa as well it makes the XX feels so outdated. but the XX has more than enough to bring a smile on every time I ride it.
If you want to compare xx models as to which is the best or fastest it all becomes so irrelevant when you ride bike's that have power to wheelie at 200kph+ most modern liter sport bike's. I have a 2005 bird really nice and fast dual carbon yoshi, but guys these bike's are so old now. I have a 2012 hyabusa as well it makes the XX feels so outdated. but the XX has more than enough to bring a smile on every time I ride it.
Also the XX is such a smoth machine to ride and handle, I had my 2000 XX then the 2002 XX then a 1800 goldwing that I took from Montreal canada to Malibu beach california true the most remote roads in these deserts then another 1800 Goldwing and for some knee problem sold id it and have now given a deposit on that 20002 cbr 1100xx, before that I had a ST 1100 honda , a 1100 GPZ Kawazaki and beleive it or not a ''widow maker H1 kawasaki'' so I think I know what I am talking about. If you want to know wahat your machine is all about ride it true the deserts.
 

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My last GF spent 15,000 kays on the back of my Bird,
10,000 Kays she was sound asleep,
When she got a licence and her own bike,
She then knew what the speedo was stating, It wasnt the Temp gauge,
She told me in future, With her on the back, Nothing over 200 dollars worth, Hahahaha
 

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Can you be 100% certain there wasn't a running issue on your old 2002?
I sold it to a europeen motorcyclist here , this is what he was riding in France and I never had negative comments from him so maybe he was used to 100hp and when he got the 2002 152hps it was heven, I wrode with him a few times and when he would accelerate I could see him get smaler on the horizon but then I had purchased a goldwing 1800 so I could not realy tell ,never the less he never had a comment like the one I posted probably cause he was used with 100hp?
 

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The financial side of this deal is none of my business but only you can decide if losing a deposit is a good idea. Also, we don't know anything about the condition of either machine except the mileage and year.
Your comparison of 2 blackbirds, a 2000 and a 2002 doesn't sound right TBH. Are you sure the 2002 wasn't a 100hp restricted French model?
fizzy we dont have those here.
 

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My last GF spent 15,000 kays on the back of my Bird,
10,000 Kays she was sound asleep,
When she got a licence and her own bike,
She then knew what the speedo was stating, It wasnt the Temp gauge,
She told me in future, With her on the back, Nothing over 200 dollars worth, Hahahaha
Has nothing to do with the speedo any one can see that it is the acceleration that we are talking about not a top speed : you know '' it is called twisting the throttle'' this is when youu know hat is happening in the '' here and now'' (brain dead)
 

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Has nothing to do with the speedo any one can see that it is the acceleration that we are talking about not a top speed : you know '' it is called twisting the throttle'' this is when youu know hat is happening in the '' here and now'' (brain dead)
Who the hell is talking top speed, 200 dollars worth is still in second gear on a Bird,
 
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