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RC46, apparently I didn't give the "wanted" answer so I am wrong lol everyone wants to compare dyno crap data without the airspeed to make the ram air FUNCTION. It will not work with the bike stationary on a dyno. If anything I can see it hurting hp with the added twists and turns of the duct work.

Partsguy, you say your carbie was always about 3mph slower through the trap. You can bang on the stationary dyno drum all day long, doesn't make it fact. You say the HEAVIER FI Bird (we can all agree the FI was heavier right?) was always 3mph faster through the traps.... what does it take to get a heavier vehicle to go faster in a given distance?....... MORE POWER. If you raced I assume you understand that it would take a notable increase in power for a heavier machine to not only catch up to but surpass a lighter, identical machine. I also assume you understand that the carbie has slightly more rotating mass (clutch plates) which would store more energy for launch. true it's only a few ounces but at 5,6 or 7000 rpm launch it's an advantage none the less, especially on a lighter bike. You can't argue with physics. While on physics let me bring up another advantage the carbie has off the line, the CV carbs. They will only open as much as the engine has demand for thus keeping intake velocity higher than a FI Bird (does not apply to WOT of course and by that I mean the slides not your wrist). Air has mass and we all know that objects in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force. This is a little tricky for me to explain but I'm going to try. With a CV carb the intake velocity stays high because the path is restricted. What this does is that when the intake valve opens air/ fuel is sucked into the engine and the entire mass of air in the air box begins to move. when the intake valve closes that mass continues to move and piles up against the valve creating pressure. Over a certain rpm this pressure does not have time to completely dissipate as a revision pulse and is now a pressurized "puff" that gives the intake charge a head start if you will on it's way into the cylinder. On the FI bikes you are in direct control of the throttle, you open it up at launch and the throttle bodies are capable of providing much more flow than required and the intake velocity drops. Now you don't have that little "puff" of stored energy in the moving mass of the incoming air/fuel mixture. At 5000rpm the intake valve opens just over 41 times per second. That is 164 times per second for all 4 cylinders now assume you pack in an extra 2cc of fuel air mixture per opening because you have a higher intake velocity. That is 328cc per second more fuel and air you are getting into the cylinders. Each cylinder is only 284.25cc. The engine is 1137cc x 41 (intake strokes per second @ 5000rpm)=46,617cc (@100% efficiency, never gonna happen). Having CV cabs should mathematically give just under 1% better volumetric efficiency, another slight advantage over FI off the line.

So now you have more rotating mass, less total weight and better volumetric efficiency at launch. How is it that the FI Bird is able to be faster through the traps? MORE POWER that you don't see on a dyno but you do have in the real world. You are highly discounting the pressure wave that is in front of the Bird at 185mph (where the 164 gross hp comes from), this is pressure that is fed into the engine at speed, it's a free, low boost turbo that you can't measure on a dyno without a wind tunnel and I would not put it past honda to have used a dyno during wind tunnel testing of the Bird.

I have been on my both of my bikes, carbie and FI with a damn good friend on the other. 0-100, carbie wins hands down regardless of rider. after 100 the FI walks away from the carbie (even with 90k more miles on the clock and without the PC) doesn't matter who rides it. btw, no one claimed 164hp at the wheel on any stock Bird, Honda numbers are gross not net.
Dang my friend your on a roll.
Again I must ask... Really your a Peace Officer? lol! just kidding but U no that's just me.
Cheers, STex out
 

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Discussion Starter #42
Well maybe I was not clear on my confusion. Sure you can get 6% more torque or hp in a certain rpm range. But the second part of the statement could be read as there is generally 6% more hp from the crank to the rear wheel, which would mean that you somehow had less transmission losses through the gearbox/chain/sprockets, just by switching from carbs to FI. I think they meant the first one (6% more rwhp in lower rpm range). But mentioning more hp to the rear wheel and then stating crank hp is still the same is implying the second sentence is a separate remark on higher transmission efficiency (for which no reason is given).
Did that make sense?
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I can believe it. They also changed the header were the 2/3 pipes are a tad longer which may be part of the increase along with the cam change.

So when are you going to get a dyno?
I didn't get what you were on about with the 2/3 pipes, but the 1999 press kit explains it like below (no where does it mention 6% of any thing though):
To give the engine a more solid boost of low-to-midrange power and stronger accelertion, the arrangement of the exhaust pipes was changed from the current model’s 180° pairing of the pipes leading from cylinders 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 to a 360° pairing of cylinders 1 & 4 and 2 & 3. While this new grouping tends to reduce the engine’s top-end power output somewhat, the Super Blackbird’s new Direct Air Intake system more than compensates for the loss with its big surge in highspeed performance.

I think the Dutch piece of information was just a local marketing guy making a crappy summary of the 1999 models' improvements over the carbie.

When am I getting a dyno? A dyno session? Of which bike? Or a private dyno machine to do private runs all day long?
 

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Dang Y'all,
your talking about bits of added horse power.
Whats it matter,,,does not the machine you ride between your legs...(yaya Silver I know) and felling her power is it not enough?
Just seem funny to me being a shade tree wrench twister..but there has been some good banter going on here I must say.
This bike is a wonderful machine ever at 100 smooth and calm.
A bit past that better get you tuck on depending on your wind screen as they are all different.
After that this horse wants to gallop.
Sing her out in forth, bring her all the way out in to fifth and at that time U better be the the master of the saddle or ouch!
then sixth is up to the rider.
Here in Texas everything is fast. :)>)

Done fried me up some local oysters and fixen to tear into them. (different than Mikey's eggs)
Take care Y'all.
STex, out
 

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Discussion Starter #47
It would have been nice to see how a 99 FI V&M tuned bike compared to the carbed version.
??????????????? a 99 FI V&M tuned bike? you mean how a 1200cc FI with V&M treatment would compare to the carbed 1200cc V&M 50th anniversary?

Well there was someone on here that claims to have a V&M FI bike with power commander, it might be a hobby project made to look like a V&M bike, but it might also be legit, that's up for debate: http://www.cbrxx.com/introductions/14217-cbr-1200-a.html
 

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Why would I have to state it would be a 1200cc version? Without trying to belittle you would know V&M were supposed to make a 50th anniversary version of the FI because they could not get their hands on any more carbed bikes and Honda could not supply the required codes for the FI . That is why they only made 25 instead of 50.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Your comment came a little out of nowhere, so I was trying to understand what you were saying exactly. I know that they wanted FI, but couldn't get the code, but didn't they have power commanders in 1999? Or maybe Honda UK did not want the limelight to be on power commander, so they opted for carbs anyway? We will probably never know. But for a fair comparison they'd both have to be 1200cc, otherwise you can't see the benefit of FI over tuned carbs, wouldn't you agree? 1137cc FI with custom map vs 1200 cc carb is not exactly fair is it?
 

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Yes the V&M FI would have been 1200cc the same as the carb version that is why I was surprised at your reply. I have actually sent an email to Jack Valentine asking him how he thinks the FI version would have turned out but I am not holding my breath while I wait for a reply . Would be great if he did.
 

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Well maybe I was not clear on my confusion. Sure you can get 6% more torque or hp in a certain rpm range. But the second part of the statement could be read as there is generally 6% more hp from the crank to the rear wheel, which would mean that you somehow had less transmission losses through the gearbox/chain/sprockets, just by switching from carbs to FI. I think they meant the first one (6% more rwhp in lower rpm range). But mentioning more hp to the rear wheel and then stating crank hp is still the same is implying the second sentence is a separate remark on higher transmission efficiency (for which no reason is given).
Did that make sense?
OK gotcha. I see what you are saying. You're probably right about the marketing speak. We will probably never know unless we can get several stock bikes and dyno them. That's when you BUY your dyno and we all come over to your place to a horsepower party.....:whistle:
 

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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
and we all come over to your place to a horsepower party.....:whistle:
I can see us now :)



@stu56: maybe you can also ask him if this '1999 FI V&M 50th anniversary' bike is legit: http://www.cbrxx.com/members/10418-albums390.html it's clearly not one of the 25 carb V&M bikes, but what is it? The Ride article from 2006 was already warning about counterfeits, so I'm skeptical about this one, and he claimed 205 hp on the dyno (crank??) and 354 kph. Even with a higher rpm limit it is not geared for that. My bike did 300 real kph on the dyno (no wind resistance) at the max rpm, so even if you add 10% rpm you are nowhere near 364 kph. The actual V&M bike with 500 extra rpm topped out at 197 mph = 317 kph with the stock gearing, which makes much more sense.
 

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The actual V&M bike with 500 extra rpm topped out at 197 mph = 317 kph with the stock gearing, which makes much more sense.
Now put a 18t front sprocket on. 200mph+ Put a set of wings on it and I'll bet it could jump the Snake River canon that Evil missed.
Oh ya a new Guinness world record. lol
 
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Well I received this reply from Jack Valentine. Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your enquiry regarding the 50th Anniversary Blackbirds we did.

To answer your question I think if we had used the fuel injected model we would have had similar results to the carburetted version but we might have run into some mapping issues which hopefully we could have worked out by tricking the stock ECU with a Power Commander.
If that had not worked a new ECU (Motec) would have had to be fitted to get the required results.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Jack Valentine
Managing Director
Valmoto Ltd
Mobile +447734 740157
E-Mail [email protected]
Valmoto
 

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Discussion Starter #55
THE PLOT THICKENS :eyebrows:

Hi folks,

just joined the forum. :) Well, let's talk a bit about myself.

I'm Marcel from Germany, 23 years old and I'm XX-Rider since I'm 21. My first XX was a Bluebird from 3/1999, which I lost due to a crash whitch wasn't my fault. :mad: So, I got my current XX in 2014, also a Bluebird from 1/1999.

Because I'm a big Repsol Honda fan and I love riding the bike sporty, it got some optical and technical Tuning. Here's how I bought her:

View attachment 60126 View attachment 60127

Following Tuning was done:

-Engine Tuning made by the german inline four experts from LKM.de up to 156 HP on the backwheel and 170 HP on the clutch (including complete engine overhaul, bigger intake ducts, optimized cams for shorter valve overlap, better valves, modified Airbox, modified ignition and an engine mapping for more power at high revs)
-WILBERS sport suspension front and rear with 15mm higher rear shock
-SPIEGLER peak racing brake discs with sinter racing pads
-ROMBO exhaust cans without catalyzer
-Customized black/white Repsol design
-Pillion cover
-Black leather tank cover
-GP500 Racing Screen
-LED Turning indicators with daytime running lights on the front
-LED rear light
-LED Dashboard lighting
-HOOTAZ two tone horn

After all that, she ended up like this. Me also... :D Handles and accelerates like a Fireblade. :cool:

View attachment 60132 View attachment 60128 View attachment 60129 View attachment 60130 View attachment 60131

So, that's me. :D

Greetings from Germany
Thanks guys. :D

When it is about MotoGP look, the stickers are a must have. :rolleyes: For the bike as well as for the suit. :O

For those who are interested in the tuning:
LKM is the engine tuner with the most experience for inline four engines in europe. They have customers all over the world and that's amazing, there were even guys from the USA or from Russia bringing their bikes to this shop. :D LKM TUNING CENTER GALLERY

The tuning costs 1200€. But I guess that's a fair price because they are doing the tuning work and they also do a whole big inspection on the bike. The result is between 20 and 28 extra HP on the clutch, depending on what exhaust system is used. The ROMBO cans I have installed are just for good street legal sound and they aren't the best for increasing the power, so with other cans she would have some more horses. ...but shitty sound. :D

I know that 20-28 HP are much, but not as much as you can reach with a turbo kit. But you won't be able to do a turbo-tuning for this price. :D They have made more than 100 Blackbird engines and because of this experience, they can do it for this price. And the best thing is: You get 2 years of warranty for the tuning. :thumb:

I was amazed what it has done to the bike, the 6th gear feels like the 4th gear before when you're doing full throttle and sometimes I'm trying to shift another one up when I'm already in 6th. :smilebig: This is an effect you can't reach with power commander or anything else. :lmao:

For our members from europe, I can highly recommend it. In 1996 a carb XX with the the LKM-tuning set up a high speed record for motorbikes with official measured 302 km/h (187,6 mph) at the high speed track in Nardo and it was measured 1 second faster from 0-200km than a stock XX. :evilaugh: The test was made by the german bike magazine "PS Sportbike", see the photos attached. ;) I'm collecting vintage magazines with the XX in test and that was one of the most interesting ones. :D

View attachment 60157 View attachment 60158 View attachment 60159
wilkommen!
141 rwhp and 295 km/h on a stock Bird? that is the highest of any test. and while the dyno might be 'happy', I assume the top speed was calibrated. very strong tail wind?
in any case, since that 1074 cc Suzuki is putting out 164 rwhp while getting 298 km/h, it proves our Blackbird is pretty slippery, because 152 rwhp makes it go 302 km/h! the 15 kg they shaved off is probably just the exhaust?
edit: actually my bird (2003) did 300 km/h on the dyno, so I don't think stock gearing could get you beyond 302 km/h anyway and both bikes had stock gearing in the test
@Beestoys: Yes, she gets an other mapping on the stock ECU.

@Gimmick: The Test was made in 1996, so it was one of the first carb Blackbirds measured. The test was done at the high speed ring in Nardo, Italy. When they tried first, the XX reached 300,3km/h in 6th gear when the engine reached the limiter. After they modified the ECU to set the limiter 600 RPMs higher, they finally reached 302 km/h.

And yes, it is written that the LKM Blackbird wasn't the strongest Bike in the test, but she was the fastest because she had mutch better aerodynamics than the Alpha Technic RF1100. She had a carbon Akrapovic 4 in 1 exhaust, that can be ordered when you give her to LKM, but it just delivers 3 or 4 extra HP and the 4 in 1 Akrapovic System costs about 1100€. So it was no option for me because the street legal Akras here in europe are as quiet as the stock mufflers. :(

I talked to Hennes Löhr, he is the senior boss of LKM and he tuned the Blackbird in the test in 1996. He told me that this is still the same tuning they used on mine, just with a few other details because I have the FI version. He said due to the RAM Air System she should do the same performance. I already had a bit more than 320 km/h on the clock on the Autobahn which was about 297 km/h meausured by GPS, but that was in autumn last year at lower temperatures.

So Hennes said that I should give another try this season when it is a bit warmer, because cold air is good for the engine power, but cold air also produces more drag. And drag is the bigger problem at this speed. :D He also said if the shit gets serious, I should also fold on the mirrors. :smilebig:
Very interesting info. What surprises me though is your remark that they change the stock ECU. Have you heard about the V&M bike? (see below) They famously used an older carb bike, because even Honda UK could not get the code to change the ECU on the FI model. So I wonder how LKM achieves this.
So maybe people could change the digital ignition unit for the carb bike (and rpm limiter) but not the ECU for the FI model, or maybe Honda has changed it's policy since 1999? Or Hennes Löhr has better contacts than Honda Britain? But if the ECU access codes are now 'common' knowledge, why are we all still using Power Commanders? :confused:
Okay, when it is about the 1200cc UK version, this is a myth anyway and in every point. :D I guess they would have been able to figure it out, but I guess they simply didn't got the permission to do modifications on the FI-System. Because there is one thing the japanese hate: When someone else wants to improve something, that they invented a few months ago. Know what I mean? :rolleyes: And I guess there were only 25 of these bikes made because they were made to be prototypes for the presentation of an improved Blackbird, but because Honda in Japan said "No, we're not gonna do this in high volume production", the UK guys had built 25 prototypes which were useless now. So what do you do with them? Right, you put a serial number badge on it and sell it as a "special edition". :smilebig:

Because of the ECU: As part of the Tuning, the ignition and the injection has to be adjusted and they did it all without a power commander. What I don't know is, if I still have the same ECU installed, that I had before. :D But it is definitily an original one.

So there must be a possibility to do something on the ECU, because otherwise you can't adjust the ignition and the injection that correctly. What I also have to say: There are two possible Setups you can choice for the LKM Tuning. There is one Setup for more torque and more power from the lower rpm range like the original setup. In the performance chart of the original setup, the power and the torque is climbing up to its highest point at around 8500-9500, then it falls down. That's also the rpm range where she has her maximum power in the official factory data. This is the standard setup they use for the tuning, because the diagram looks almost the same, but it is reaching more torque and more power at 8500-9500 RPM.
The other setup (which I have on mine) is an almost linear graph in the diagram. So the Power increases like the stock diagram, but instead of falling down at 9500, it keeps increasing almost linear until she hits 11.000 RPMs, where she now has got her 156 whp. So this is a totally different engine characteristic like a 1000cc supersport, compared to the stock setup.

And I really feel the difference. Because... Roads in Bavaria are curvy (very long high speed curves and very shape curves) and the police is busy with the refugees. :smilebig: So especially on roads with many long high speed curves where you're working above 9000 RPMs for the whole time, you clearly feel the difference when you turn the throttle in 4th or 5th gear (I don't want to write the speed :D ) with the knee down and you're still painting a loooong black stripe on the road... :evilaugh: Apropos: I'm using a touring tyre, Michelin Pilot Road 2. :D

And when the police isn't busy with the refugees... you have to take it with a smile. :rolleyes:

View attachment 60162
 

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We all know the 99 is the true XXX and is the fastest....:) anyway I have had one of my birds on the dyno with exhaust and a K&N airfilter. It was tuned to 141hp I believe. That is a 99 US model, and it was a full delkevic header with D&D mufflers.
 

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Hi everyone, in another topic Digito mentioned he switched from an EU to an USA ECU on his 2001 FI Bird and that he could feel 'those 164 vs 152 hp really exist'. I can't blame him, because that misinformation is found everywhere, and Wikipedia doesn't help in this regard either. So I replied with an explanation, but let me also set the record straight here, for google and forum search purposes. I replied the following:

When Honda started selling the carburated Blackbird (in Europe) they rated it at 164 horsepower or 121 kW.
With the introduction of FI in 1999, they again rated the Blackbird at 164 horsepower and 121 kW but this time they added (DIN) behind the 164 horsepower, so 164 hp (DIN).
Then in 2000, a year BEFORE the introduction of the European wide version with catalytic converter, so the SAME SPEC bike as in 1999, they gave two ratings: 164 hp / 121 kW (DIN) and 152 hp / 112 kW (95/1/EC). This is where the 152 hp originates, not because it is European, not because of a cat, just because it is a different metric, like DIN, BHP, STD, SAE etc.
In 2001 they dropped the 164 (DIN) all together and the press info only mentions 152 hp (95/1/EC). From this year onwards all European bikes have a catalytic converter, but Honda claimed that by tweaking some stuff, the hp and torque remained the same between the non-cat FI ('99-'00) and cat FI bikes ('01-'07).

If I'm not mistaking the USA never introduced a Bird with cat, and they might indeed have a different mapping that gives a different sensation during acceleration, but not one with 12 hp extra! Also a 2001 FI-cat Bird might indeed Dyno different than a 2000 FI Bird, BUT THEY BOTH HAVE A CLAIMED 164 AND 152 HP!!!

When I explained the above on a Dutch forum once, someone replied with some general user experiences. The non-cat FI Birds ('99-'00) are supposed to be the most powerful, followed by the carbies ('96-'98) and finally the digidash and catted Birds '(01-'07).

Wikipidia claims the following for 2002, which I don't see mentioned in the 2002 press kit, but anyway:
New EFI mapping to comply with emission standards[SUP][which?][/SUP] and eliminate abrupt throttle response at low speeds.Manufacturer's power and torque figures reduced to 152 hp (113.3 kW) and 87.8 ft-lb (119 Nm)
This seems wrong on many levels, but what I do know is that when I first rode my 2003 FI Bird, it felt less powerful or less torque rich on acceleration than my 1997 Bird. After some time my conclusion was that this indeed had to do with throttle response, the carbie being more on-off in the first degrees of twist, while the FI was more gradual and thus gave more control, but when you twist it wide open, it goes just as fast as the carbie.

It would be interesting to put well-maintained, completely stock Birds (with new chain and tires) on the same dyno from each iteration, but I am willing to believe non-catted Birds are the strongest stock. But if you put a full exhaust system and PC3 on a catted Bird you also end up with up to 160 rwhp, so I've heard. I also know of someone who maintains many many Blackbirds and has owned many as well, and he once rode a 100 hp French version without even noticing the missing horsepower. So while I don't doubt that the bike felt different to Digito after the EU to USA ECU swap, I remain a bit skeptical :)

By the way, the German (G-type) catted version for 2000 did have a lower hp figure, but that was still 160 hp / 118 kW (DIN) and 150 hp / 110 kW (95/1/EC).

Anyone care to chime in on the horsepower debate? No need to mention the Silver ones are the fastest though, we all know that already. :cool:
I had a 2000 1100xx blackbird and the aceleration was incredible and totaly linear, then I got a 2002 1100xx, the difference was frustration ,the machine felt dead if I twisted the throtel at 5000 rpm's nothing would happen compared to the 2000 model ,between 5000 and 6000 rpm's it felt like their was a flat spot on the power delivery. It was not the same blackbird at all and totaly frustrating, on the 2000 I never had to downshift the power was allways avalable. now I just got me a 2002 1100xx ultra clean did not drive it because winter is here so I will pick it up in may but found a 2000 with 80000km less and am thinking of loozing the deposit on the 2002 to get what I know has a freaking good feeling on the throtle. comments please.
 

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Try the FI above 7000 RPM, My 05 and 06 came alive above 7000 RPM,
 
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