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Thread: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

  1. #31
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    I am currently thinking about your idea of puting holes through the tank...
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  3. #32

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Just to be clear - the ONE WAY VALVE in the SMC is actually a TWO WAY VALVE.

    The high flow way pushes the ball off the seat to allow the brakes to react quickly.

    There is a tiny ( 0.4mm ) hole in the valve so brake fluid can return for pushing pistons back and releasing brakes.

    Many people don't clean out the small hole when cleaning out the SMC.
    Ausblackbird and exxelent like this.

  4. #33
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Just one thing that is bothering my mind...
    For what i understand in the cbs tech draw, if the rear brake pedal is pressed with the bike STOPPED, only the rear center caliper piston should move? Am i right?
    When i retract all 3 pistons of the rear caliper and then press the brake pedal, all 3 pistons move out.
    If there is any air in the system, can the rear brake have this kind of behavior?
    I read lots of stuff here in the forum and it seems that many owners had rear brake problems. But i have been looking through all the bolts and bits related to the cbs and i am still facing excessive rear wheel drag and rear brake lock by just using the pedal with the bike stopped.

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  6. #34
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo View Post
    For what i understand in the cbs tech draw, if the rear brake pedal is pressed with the bike STOPPED, only the rear center caliper piston should move? Am i right?
    Yes.
    That said, if you look at the second diagram you will see that the pedal also feeds the secondary cylinder (and front centre pistons) so if there is any pressure created in the system through the secondary cylinder the two outer pistons in the rear caliper will operate.

    Are the centre front pistons operating when you apply the rear brake pedal?
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  7. #35
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Yes...the front pistons are operating.
    Last night at the garage, with the help of a pressure plier, i cut the brake oil flow at the rubber hose near the rear brake caliper.

    If i cut the flow from the hose that brings the oil from the front, the rear brake is fine. No problems. (I am performing this test just by operating the rear pedal with the bike stopped.)

    If i cut the flow from the hose that comes directly from the rear master cylinder to the rear caliper and just leave the oil flowing from the rear master cylinder to the front brakes then into the rear caliper...the rear brake gets stuck and the wheel drags.

    I did some research on google about CBS rear wheel drag and found some recalls for this problem with the Goldwing models. Honda changed the secundary master cylinder to solve the problem.

  8. #36
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    OK so it looks like the problem is still in the secondary cylinder.
    It shouldn't allow pressure to 'back feed' and should only operate when the piston is compressed.

    Sorry to say it but you need to re-visit the secondary
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  9. #37

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDuck View Post
    OK so it looks like the problem is still in the secondary cylinder.
    It shouldn't allow pressure to 'back feed' and should only operate when the piston is compressed.

    Sorry to say it but you need to re-visit the secondary
    Hi Duck, what do you mean by 'back feed'?

  10. #38

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    I still think you have crud in the Delay valve or the SMC or PCV. Most likely it is the SMC. Check the SMC piston is retracting fully and not blocking the ports and the check valve is in correctly. This is copied from the folling link. Documents released by NHTSA for the original 2011 recall attribute the problem to a lack of sufficient free play inside the master cylinder that can cause a blockage of the compensating port.

    http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/10/21/manufacturers/honda/honda-finally-has-a-fix-for-gold-wing-rear-brake-drag-issue/

  11. #39
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausblackbird View Post
    Hi Duck, what do you mean by 'back feed'?
    well if only the brake pedal is being pressed that is the only source of pressure in the system so the fluid is coming forwards to the 2 front centre pistons (that's why I asked if they were working) and then finding it's way back to the 2 outer pistons which is why they are emerging from the caliper and causing the rear brake to bind ..... so the pressure is feeding back or 'back feeding'.
    This suggests to me that probably the valve in the SMC is not operating correctly.

    Note the diagram posted earlier in the thread shows a break in the fluid path at the valve.
    Ausblackbird likes this.
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  12. #40

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDuck View Post
    OK so it looks like the problem is still in the secondary cylinder.
    It shouldn't allow pressure to 'back feed' and should only operate when the piston is compressed.

    Sorry to say it but you need to re-visit the secondary
    I had a think about this and I believe the outer rear pistons should move with just the pedal and then be assisted by the SMC further in to the braking.

    When the SMC is in it's fully retracted position - the small port in the side allows fluid from the pedal line - straight through the SMC and out to the rear caliper (outer pistons )
    Only when the delay valve has allowed the activation of the front centre pistons will the SMC activate and increase the pressure further on the outer rear pistons.


    I think the SMC is not returning fully OR the tiny return hole in the side valve is blocked.
    Ausblackbird likes this.

  13. #41

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Apologies in advance for repeating what you have already suggested Duck. The rear brake pedal pressurises the entire system front and rear through the DV, SMC and PCV. The front brakes release, so the DV and Rear Master Cylinder are ok. Pressure is not being released by either the PCV or SMC. Try cracking the lines in the correct sequence to determine if it's the PCV or SMC, e.g. press then release the pedal to make the rear drag then crack the relevent line. When you crack the line, pressure will be released and the rear wheel will/should be easy to turn instantly. Crack the line between the PCV and SMC first and if the brake releases, then the SMC is faulty and the PCV is ok. Yes you'll have to bleed the system again,,, argh!! The PCV should be fine unless it has been blocked by crud. But as The Duck said, it has to be the SMC. Either the check valve is blocked or the compensating port is covered by the piston cup. The below links relate to the Goldwing but they may be applicable, for a clue. I still think it's crud, but this is what I meant by making sure the ports aren't being blocked by a poorly adjusted SMC. There are no specs for the Blackbird. Hopefully someone can measure a factory set one? It's getting late here so I hope what I typed makes sense. The system is very basic and it's all about fluid transfer. Where does the fluid flow and what could restrict or block the flow. GL1800 Secondary Master Cylinder Photo by BobUSNA71 | Photobucket http://m7.i.pbase.com/g4/41/9841/2/1...7.ZJzHejVG.jpg
    Howling likes this.

  14. #42

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by CBRDEAN0 View Post
    I had a think about this and I believe the outer rear pistons should move with just the pedal and then be assisted by the SMC further in to the braking.

    When the SMC is in it's fully retracted position - the small port in the side allows fluid from the pedal line - straight through the SMC and out to the rear caliper (outer pistons )
    Only when the delay valve has allowed the activation of the front centre pistons will the SMC activate and increase the pressure further on the outer rear pistons.


    I think the SMC is not returning fully OR the tiny return hole in the side valve is blocked.
    I could have gone to bed much earlier if I had of seen your post!!! Took me ages to type my post Good work and he'll get it sorted. He'll be cranky and frustrated but sorted

  15. #43
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    OK...i took the secondary master cylinder appart...AGAIN...

    I found that in the plastic valve inside, one tiny hole was blocked. It was a pain to clean it. I used a small coper wire like in the pic, but i had to struggle a bit, since the blockage was too strong.

    I dont have time right now to re-assemble everything...but later today i`ll see if this was the MISTEREOUS CASE of my rear brake drag.

    (the pic shows the hole that was blocked.)va1.jpgva2.jpg
    Ausblackbird and TheDuck like this.

  16. #44
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    I've got my fingers crossed for you eduardo but assuming that you have got all the brown mess out of the whole system I've got a good feeling ......

    Some interesting thoughts CBRDEANO, I suppose the only way to work out exactly how much effect the rear pedal has is to work out the volume of fluid moved to the front and how much is used to push out the central front pistons (indeterminate because it depends on pad to disc clearance). Any excess fluid is then cycled into the SMC to be used when the SMC is activated, it can only be the excess otherwise pressure on the centre pistons would drop..... or perhaps it does!
    Testing in the garage/workshop makes the system work in an unnatural way (does anybody stamp on the rear and not touch the front when out riding?) so to me it is no surprise that we see some strange effects.
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  17. #45

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo View Post
    OK...i took the secondary master cylinder appart...AGAIN...

    I found that in the plastic valve inside, one tiny hole was blocked. It was a pain to clean it. I used a small coper wire like in the pic, but i had to struggle a bit, since the blockage was too strong.

    I dont have time right now to re-assemble everything...but later today i`ll see if this was the MISTEREOUS CASE of my rear brake drag.

    (the pic shows the hole that was blocked.)va1.jpgva2.jpg
    That's the one - so many people don't see it when cleaning.
    Howling likes this.


 
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