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Thread: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

  1. #16

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Dont know if it helps but i have looked it up and also found just one seal ring (the white one in your picture).

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  3. #17
    I are the grammar police
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo View Post

    Im full of brake fluid in my hands an shoes...i`m tired.

    Help please.
    Hey Eduardo,

    I'm going to come in from left-field here.

    When covered with brake fluid, exhausted and p*ssed off... now is not the time to do anything.

    Put everything down!

    Take a shower, grab a beer/tea/food/loved one (or all of the above) and do anything... anything... but whatever you do... don't try to figure out nasty, ugly brake parts.

    There'll be tomorrow. It's Friday night... in Portugal.

    LOL.
    Ausblackbird likes this.
    Well, I thought I had some special buttons now, but some people have even specialer buttons.

  4. #18

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo View Post
    NEW UPDATE

    I can only work on my bike when i leave work, so...

    Cleaned secondary master cylinder, cleaned front calipers, cleaned rear caliper...no drag at all in the pistons...put everything together and SAME STORY.
    Rear wheel is now dragging more than it should. Front wheel doesnt drag that much. When i press rear brake pedal, rear wheel gets stuck for 2 or 3 seconds, then releases for itself, but the rear wheel keeps dragging.

    Only thing i didnt took apart was the rear master cylinder. Dont know if has something to do whit it.

    Im full of brake fluid in my hands an shoes...i`m tired.

    Help please.
    Makes sure the head is fresh and clear before playing with CBS! Did you pull the delay valve and proportioning valve apart and blow out all the lines? The crap that developes in poorly service brake systems will clog everything including brake lines (rubber and steel). If any valve or orifice is blocked or restricted, it will hold enough pressure in the system to hold the pistons out. Remember it is only the piston seal which retracts the piston. The seal flexes a very very small amount. It is not a spring, so any degradation in any part of the system will affect any part of the systems performance. Don't forget when playing with the DELAY, PROPORTIONING SMC valves - PARTS MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE. Hope it works out well for you without too much fuss.

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  6. #19
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Ok. thanks for all input guys.
    But before i get to mess with the brakes again...for what i understand about the tech draw of the CBS, i can tell that when i operate the brake pedal with the bike standing, there is no oil flowing in the secondary master cylinder...so no oil in the proportional valves either. The problem with my rear brake is only when i press the pedal and the bike is stopped. Rear caliper gets stuck for some seconds. Front wheels spin free.
    Last chance would be the rear master cylinder. Brake oil flows well and strong from all brake bleeders, so i am not thinking about any kind of obstruction in the hoses or calipers.
    Even without pumping the brakes, rear wheel drags way more than the twin caliper front wheel. Doesnt make sense.

    Lesson to be learned: Its better to buy a high milleage bike fully serviced than a low milleage one service neglected.

  7. #20
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by Eduardo
    The problem with my rear brake is only when i press the pedal and the bike is stopped. Rear caliper gets stuck for some seconds. Front wheels spin free.
    That tells me a lot, since the brake pedal only operates the centre piston.
    Try pushing the two outer pistons back into the caliper (so they can have no effect) and then check that the problem is reproduced.
    If the problem is still there, remove the cap from the rear reservoir and check again.
    To me it sounds like the fluid is only returning slowly when the pedal is released. Does the pedal move freely on its pivot post when the return spring is removed? In the UK climate they can get sticky if not lubricated regularly.
    If the pedal is free to move either the centre piston is sticking or there is an obstruction in the line that is preventing the fluid from returning quickly when you release the pressure on the pedal.
    I suggest you check these simple things before tearing into the master cylinder.
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  8. #21
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Yes. If i push the rear caliper pistons back and then pump just the brake pedal, the rear wheel drags again. The brake pedal moves free in the pivot. No effort at all.

  9. #22
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    I have also taken the rear caliper out and cleaned everything. It wasnt that bad inside and the piston can be pushed in by hand. Im sure a stuck piston is not the problem.

  10. #23
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    OK so with that clear then the only reason for the piston not releasing has to be somewhere between the caliper and the fluid reservoir ...... so hoses, master cylinder and reservoir. Something is slightly blocked.

    Having made that statement, I assume that the caliper slides on its slider - across the disc not the slider on the swing arm which I have never seen stuck.
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  11. #24
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    UPDATE...again

    Before i took pieces appart, i pushed the rear caliper pistons fully in. Then installed the pads. Then pressed the brake pedal, the center piston moved first, but when it touched the pads, the outer pistons came off too. The brake was stuck.

    Took the pressure differencial valve appart, the one near the rear brake fluid reservoir. Nothing to see here. Everything looked good. Installed it again.

    Took the rear master cylinder appart. Couldnt believe it...full of brown mud. This mud came from the rear fluid reservoir down to hose and in to the master cylinder. Stripped the master cylinder. Cleaned everything with brake cleaner. Put everything back on again. Used a professional brake bleeder, and...VOILÁ...

    NO MORE DRAG.

    But......since my bird is a complete joke, i noticed that when i was triyng to bleed the brakes, no oil was coming from the outer rear bleeder...the one faced to the back of the bike. I can even take it off into my hand and nothing...no oil out of the caliper. The bleeder looks fine, no crap inside, even if i press the brake pedal hard without the bleeder on...still no oil.

    Brakes are operating correctly but i can notice there is still some air inside that i cant get it out trough the outer bleeder.

    Help please.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #25
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Nearly there!
    If you look at the schematic that gigby posted earlier in the thread the two outer pistons are operated by the SMC so are effectively operated by the front lever not the pedal which is why you are not seeing any fluid coming out.

    Now you have got rid of all the brown mess I would be tempted to run round the bike bleeding everything in the order given in the Factory manual just to make sure there are no air pockets ....... and then zip tie the front lever and pedal on overnight, any last bubbles should be expelled.

    Well done keeping on with this!
    Full of Hot air? Intercool yourself............ you know it makes sense

  13. #26
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Is this worth checking? Does it has anything to do with brake drag?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by eduardo; 01-07-2017 at 2:14 PM.

  14. #27

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausblackbird View Post
    Ditto what exxelent said. Strip the entire system, clean, flush and freshen up the entire brake system. There is no half job with CBS. Do it properly the first time, service every two years and it will be sweet for a very long time. No de-link needed. Unless you really want to de-link.
    Hi eduardo, there is no half job when sorting out the CBS if it has been neglected for a long time. You'll be chasing your tail for days. People are critical of the CBS but there is nothing wrong with it and it operates very well. It's a great system and is very effective on the road. But it is very sensitive to neglect. There will be crud and shit through the ENTIRE SYSTEM and if you do half a job, all you will do is move the crud from one part of the system to another if the job isn't done correctly and in full. You've cleaned one part of the system but the risk is that (may not be the case but we don't know for sure) you may have transfered the crud from one part of the system into the part you have cleaned. And around in circles we go. Study the diagrams provided in this thread, think about fluid transfer and follow the manual when bleeding. To assist bleeding, try to get hold of a air compressor vacuum bleeder or at least a hand operated vacuum bleeder. Bleeding the CBS by the hold pump pump hold method can work but will take forever to get right. Once it's sorted, it'll be easy to service every two years. Cheers
    SouthTexas11XX likes this.

  15. #28

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Quote Originally Posted by Ausblackbird View Post
    Hi eduardo, there is no half job when sorting out the CBS if it has been neglected for a long time. You'll be chasing your tail for days. People are critical of the CBS but there is nothing wrong with it and it operates very well. It's a great system and is very effective on the road. But it is very sensitive to neglect. There will be crud and shit through the ENTIRE SYSTEM and if you do half a job, all you will do is move the crud from one part of the system to another if the job isn't done correctly and in full. You've cleaned one part of the system but the risk is that (may not be the case but we don't know for sure) you may have transfered the crud from one part of the system into the part you have cleaned. And around in circles we go. Study the diagrams provided in this thread, think about fluid transfer and follow the manual when bleeding. To assist bleeding, try to get hold of a air compressor vacuum bleeder or at least a hand operated vacuum bleeder. Bleeding the CBS by the hold pump pump hold method can work but will take forever to get right. Once it's sorted, it'll be easy to service every two years. Cheers
    There U have it right there what he said...plane as day light.
    Stex, out
    Came into this world with nothing and still have it all.

  16. #29
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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    Ok...i aprecciate all the help but im facing a serious and confusing problem.

    I finally got the oil flowing through the rear outer bleeder...AND THE REAR WHEEL DRAG IS BACK. Again, same problem. When i press and then leave the brake pedal with the bike stoped, rear wheel gets stuck for some seconds, then releases for itself, but the excess rear wheel drag keeps on.

    Things i have done:

    1- Stripped and cleaned all three calipers. Lots of shit inside, but like i said, the bike was having this problem since i bought it and the oil flowed well from the bleeders. Never noticed that something was blocked, except for the secondary master cylinder operation. All pistons from the 3 calipers are working smoothly and i can press them in by hand.

    2- Stripped and cleaned secondary master cylinder together with the plastic one way valve.

    3- Stripped and cleaned pressure differencial valve (the one near the rear brake reservoir), but it was OK.

    4- Stripped and cleaned rear master cylinder.

    5 Bleeded the brakes several times following the manual order with the help of a vacuum bleeder. Oil flows strong, super clean and without air bubbles in all bleeders.

    With the bike stoped, i press and depress front brake lever, front wheel brakes and releases imediatly, as normal. No drag.
    With the bike stoped, press and depress rear brake pedal, rear wheel and front wheel brakes, front wheel releases imediatly as normal, rear wheel gets stuck for some seconds and then slowly releases for itself, but leaving the rear wheel with excessive drag.

    Rear wheel is aligned and the caliper guides are free.

    I dont know what else to do. I even think there is no more work to be done to the brakes. I`m getting tired of this.

  17. #30

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    Re: Secondary master cylinder is stuck

    I would pull it off and check it since you have been so thorough with the job. Is it possible the pistons in the SMC and/or rear master cylinder are not retracting far enough to clear the ports, i.e. relieving the pressure in the system? p.s. I walked away from the 'bird a number of times to clear the head and think of through the fuel tank! Just think how valuable you will be to the Blackbird community when you have solved the problem


 
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