Thread: A short lived joy

Remove exhausts etc, put trolly jack under engine, make wood frame to hold it in place first. Unbolt engine mounts etc and pipework and wiring. 2 people lift bike frame complete off engine in jack. Only last part require 2 people.

Reverse to fit

Have containers ready for coolant and oil, the oil lines will drip forever and when you think they're dry they'll drip more when you reinstall them,as will the rad.Have containers for bolts etc, you don't want to mix them up. The only special tool needed is for the castle nut on the rear mounting collars but you can get around that carefully with a punch,they just lock the threaded collar into place against the cases. Leave the lower rear bolt for last and tilt the motor forward.The higher you can get the frame up (and stable!) the easier getting it out will be. There are spacers on the back 2 bolts, they're a pain sometimes going back in fyi.
Doesn't hurt to have proper fuel line clamps too, but an 8mm bolt works nice on the return hose (right side).
If the rod bolts come out they have to be replaced and the nuts.
My apologies if you're aware of some of this, don't know your mechanical skill level.
It weighs about 84 kg so be ready.

Brilliant thanks guys, appreciated.
I recon this is achievable.
My mechanical skill level is pretty good, although not had an engine completely disassembled for a good few years. But its pretty much like clockwork.
When im stripping machinery i sometimes use a piece of cardboard, push a bolt through and write next to it or put them in the outline of whatever it is im taking apart, works quite well.
For this I'd get several heavy duty fruit boxes, line with a piece of foam to stop parts rolling around and then some blue roll on top of that, with relevant bolts kept together, either pushed through card or in suitable container.
One for the head/camshafts, one for internals etc
I guess its set the timing marks to TDC then remove the camshaft sprocket and whip the head off?
The Conrods have Bolts AND Nuts?
Replacing Head bolts is standard practise, but get new connecting rod bolts too yes?
I should probably have a good read through the Manual (i usually look at manuals once i get stuck!! Bad practise I'm sure.. But sometimes they overcomplicate things

Yes, bolts and nuts, ALWAYS replace. No need to take sprockets off camshafts, it is tricky to get the timing marks right going back together so be patient. I've had to walk away and come back and then no problem.
How many kms are on it?
I've never replaced the head bolts or cam holder bolts, hmmm, probably should.Don't remember that in the manual. Also nowhere in the manual does it mention an amount for cam chain stretch.Please if someone has seen this let me know. I replaced mine last year (64,000 km & several hundred 1/4 mile passes) and it had stretched a leeetle bit. Maybe a couple mm.
With the head off and the valves in you can spray brake clean into the ports to see if it leaks past the valves.The valves in these motors can be lapped,I've also had a few seats recut. Well mines had a harder life than most but its STILL ON ALL THE ORIGINAL CRANK BEARINGS AND TRANSMISSION GEARS AND SHIFT FORKS!!! Can't say that for the Busa and kawi owners with similar abuse that I've met.
The gears and clutch can all stay together when splitting the cases.The cam holders are numbered so its easy to follow sequence.
There is a drain bolt on the front of the cylinder for coolant, it never drains completely when you take off the lower rad hose.
Depending on the mileage, also realizing you don't know the exact history, you may want to purchase an entire gasket kit, usually these are sold top and bottom.Top will have valve seals, I don't like or trust aftermarket valve seals and some of the cheap name head gasket, like Vesrah and Winderosa. So go oem if you're going the full route.However, a lot of o-rings that that come in the kits will not be needed,possibly even oil seals like c/shaft and push rod etc, but that's if you knew if they are original or not. In any case you can get by with reusing the valve cover gasket, I've used mine up to 3-4 times.The o-rings on the oil pipes inside the oil pan never wear. You'll need (2) 12mm crush washers for the fuel line and 6mm for the head (4). 3 case cover gaskets, tensioner gasket,head,exhaust and pulser cover gasket.
And read the manual.

Originally Posted by Partsguy

..
I've never replaced the head bolts or cam holder bolts, hmmm, probably should.Don't remember that in the manual. Also nowhere in the manual does it mention an amount for cam chain stretch.Please if someone has seen this let me know. I replaced mine last year (64,000 km & several hundred 1/4 mile passes) and it had stretched a leeetle bit. Maybe a couple mm.
....

No mention of cam chain stretch that I have ever found. My bike has had an easier (if wetter) time than your bike Al and when I changed the cam chain at +90K miles I couldn't measure the stretch it was so small.
I've never replaced the cam cap bolts on my bike, with a torque of 12Nm stretching them is never going to be an issue. I clean and inspect them at each valve check and have never seen an issue.

The one set of bolts that can/does suffer from stretching are the 'decorative' bolts that hold the cam cover on. If the history of the bike is unknown I would be checking these, the bolts are very soft.
cam cover bolts 002.JPG
Notice the stretch just below the lower collar at the start of the thread.

Thanks Al, good to know info, thanks for taking the time, appreciated.
The bike as far as I know has had an easy life. It's a 2000 inj and on around 34,000 miles. It was laid up for about 10 years, going by the MOT paper which now gives the mileage of the last few MOT checks the vehicle has had. It's last MOT was Nov '07 and the mileage was 29k (miles)
The bike only has 3 former keepers (2 of which were PO and his son)
PO told me he had known the bike since new and it had never been abused or raced and has been in storage for last few years.
He was restoring it with the intention of riding it again but at 74 years old decided he should sell it.
He had totally stripped and rebuilt it (not sure about engine, but it is all clean and painted with all new gaskets, new clutch, cct etc etc. He also built the 1000RR rear end which i really like.
It APPEARS to be a very tidy bike and looked like a very good deal, esp with the low miles..... The engine seemed very strong, last thing I imagined was the internals to go.
What kind of oil pump is in there? I wonder if the squealing was the pump failing.. Only thing I can think of

Originally Posted by MajorWolf

To be honest I think you might be right on the money there..
There are new gaskets all round, so maybe p.o went in there and from the rest of the bike, his mechanical knowledge was not amazing..
I only noticed the new sump gasket last night as i was going around with the listening stick.
I think it is the Conrod>piston/gudgeon pin bearing/s by the sound.
Its difficult to tell. But yes, its parked up now. Unfortunately I don't have any covered space to take it apart, which I'd really like to do.
The bikes only on about 36k. It was sat up for a few years then it was refteshed.
The last MOT says 29k in Nov 07
I've ridden it about 400 miles with no problems (although i thought I heard a squeal one time, but its difficult to tell with helmet on/air noise/ loud exhausts and its been making good power.
The knock has literally just happened after I've sorted all the niggles out

Are you sure it has a sump gasket ? - The BB should not have a sump gasket.
If the PO has created a gasket - I wonder what else he has bodged ??

Tbh Deano I'm not familiar with the Blackbird engine, i saw what i assumed was some gasket material with paint over it down on the bottom sump area..
Contacted P. O and his reply:
hi ,the sump had a very small oil leak ,so did the joint and checked bearings etc for play at the same time while out of the frame.all looked ok and clean inside.obviously checked valve clearances and compression tested out ok and equal changed oil filter.as you know the engine sounded fit when it left here so i dont know why it should be noisy now.dennis
The guy is not a complete moron, but some things he seemed to do by half/not aware. He stripped the bike completely and painted engine&frame. New wheel bearings/swing arm bearings (he said new head bearings but they turned out to be old and a bit rusty) The swing arm to shock link needle bearing was absolutely €¥¢kd and assembled gave nearly an inch of upward movement when you grabbed the swingarm from above, yet he painted over them..
The front brake SMC pivot needle bearings were completely seized and rusted (and painted) also the top pivot sleeve completely seized. He used rubber pipe from rear master cylinder to remote reservoir in tailpiece. Obviously the brake fluid was seeping through the entire pipe like a seive. The rear sprocket had been hammered on (rather than remove some of the powder coating, so that was skewed, as was the rear disk. All the fairing screen bolts have been replaced with nuts and bolts (what a p.i.t.a) His welding is unbelievably sh¡t, like unbelievably sh!t. The fairing wasn't put back together correctly and one of the front air ducts was not even located at the front so only got half the air. The chain was made up out of three parts. The front sprocket was so worn, one side of the teeth were concaved like a cresting wave etc..
Some of these things are quite forgivable (!!?)
Maybe it's just my destiny to get REALLY familiar with the Honda Blackbird...

Originally Posted by MajorWolf

Tbh Deano I'm not familiar with the Blackbird engine, i saw what i assumed was some gasket material with paint over it down on the bottom sump area..
Contacted P. O and his reply:
hi ,the sump had a very small oil leak ,so did the joint and checked bearings etc for play at the same time while out of the frame.all looked ok and clean inside.obviously checked valve clearances and compression tested out ok and equal changed oil filter.as you know the engine sounded fit when it left here so i dont know why it should be noisy now.dennis
The guy is not a complete moron, but some things he seemed to do by half/not aware. He stripped the bike completely and painted engine&frame. New wheel bearings/swing arm bearings (he said new head bearings but they turned out to be old and a bit rusty) The swing arm to shock link needle bearing was absolutely €¥¢kd and assembled gave nearly an inch of upward movement when you grabbed the swingarm from above, yet he painted over them..
The front brake SMC pivot needle bearings were completely seized and rusted (and painted) also the top pivot sleeve completely seized. He used rubber pipe from rear master cylinder to remote reservoir in tailpiece. Obviously the brake fluid was seeping through the entire pipe like a seive. The rear sprocket had been hammered on (rather than remove some of the powder coating, so that was skewed, as was the rear disk. All the fairing screen bolts have been replaced with nuts and bolts (what a p.i.t.a) His welding is unbelievably sh¡t, like unbelievably sh!t. The fairing wasn't put back together correctly and one of the front air ducts was not even located at the front so only got half the air. The chain was made up out of three parts. The front sprocket was so worn, one side of the teeth were concaved like a cresting wave etc..
Some of these things are quite forgivable (!!?)
Maybe it's just my destiny to get REALLY familiar with the Honda Blackbird...

Wow - you have got / had a chunk of work on your hands.
I would drop off the exhaust - then drop the oil - and then remove the sump.
You may be able to see the issue from underneath.

If the bike is rideable - you could pop across to Ponderosa Café Saturday morning ( 25th ) to meet around 20 of the group ( all riding Blackbirds ) - for another opinion.
There is a ride out setting off at 10.30am - people will be there from around 9.30 for a brew.
Come across by car if bike is not mobile and say hello.
Not sure of exact timing but the ride will get to Barmouth mid afternoon Saturday.

I do feel for you MW, many years ago I bought a GPZ900 from a guy who weaved me a web. The bike looked ok to my untrained eye and I was keen as I'd wanted one for years...should of walked away but I didn't know better and couldn't resist. When I took it to a friend for an appraisal he basically said it was a pile of shite, 'you've bought a shed' was his words. Things like the exhaust collector box held together with PP50, car wheel nuts holding the springs down inside the fork legs, wiring all over the place, oil seeping from head gasket, head bearings shot, cams pitted, inner fairing fixings broke...I could go on. At least you have the know how to put things right, good luck.

When u said while engine was out, he checked the bearings I worry, given your rest of description- by the bodge list he could easily have cocked up a perfectly good engine, especially at what is a run in mileage for bird. Feel for you, most of us have been there at sometime, once you sort her she'll be worth the effort.

Well it was a remote buy.. Although tbh its amazing what a lick of paint and powder coating can do. Even had i seen it in person, i probably would have been "yeah this is pretty tidy" its only when you start removing things... He was fond of using fibreglass n resin to fix things.. Like radiator brackets.. Seat latch mountings.. I also noticed a manifold stud has been sheared off.
Good plan Dean, i was going to take the tank off whip the plugs out and do a pressure test first off. Then yes, will remove pipes (wanted to pull that broken stud out, dont like seeing broken studs!) drop the sump and have a butchers.. Something may well be visable..
As for riding, i really don't think thats an option.. Shame. I'm down the coast just outside Cardigan so bit of a trip to ponderosa, but if I'm free i may just take the silver Triumph
And yes Kris i think you're right, it will be worth it in the end!
And yerr i bought a total lemon of a VS750 once.. Looked tidy.. If i just say that the PO thought it was ok to leave the main swing arm bearing spacers out (running on the bolt!!) you can make the rest up lolol

i was able to remove the motor of my '97 by myself using a cherry picker to control it's decent. i busted the side case & oil sump in a crash so i wasn't too concerned about any further damage... years ago but, as i recall, the frame squeezed it rather tightly and i used a mallet and block of wood to tap it free.

found a shop locally that would install the replacement for a couple hundred, so i let 'em...

Originally Posted by ptxyz

i was able to remove the motor of my '97 by myself using a cherry picker to control it's decent. i busted the side case & oil sump in a crash so i wasn't too concerned about any further damage... years ago but, as i recall, the frame squeezed it rather tightly and i used a mallet and block of wood to tap it free.

found a shop locally that would install the replacement for a couple hundred, so i let 'em...

Put bike on centre stand & load up top box to lift front off floor.
Remove front wheel.
When ready to remove engine - nick the lads skateboard - place under engine - remove top bolts
loosen two rear bolts
lift head slightly and remove upper rear bolt.
engine can now be rotated on lower rear bolt to rest on skateboard
remove rear lower bolt and wheel engine away on skateboard.