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UNDERSTANDING LBS

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7.3K views 27 replies 16 participants last post by  Warchild  
#1 ·
I am trying to understand the LBS on the Blackbird, before I disconnect and install steel braided lines and go with the conventional braking system.


Now the proportional control valve is basically the brains behind LBS. It links the rear brake to the left front brake. Is this correct?


I understand the front main master cylinder and what it does. But what in the world does the secondary master cylinder do? Does it play a part in the LBS or is it's primary use just part of the front braking system only?
 
#2 · (Edited)
The master cylinder attached to the left front brake caliper is applied when the front caliper is clamped against the disk. The caliper is forced to rotate against the master cylinder. This applies hydraulic pressure to the rear caliper. So...if you are moving, applying the front brake will apply the back brake also. Heavier braking applies more pressure.

The foot lever applies both the rear brake and front brake. There is a delay before the front pressure is allowed to build up. That's it in a nutshell.
The early one were not so good but they have it pretty good now. Why change it?


I suppose an easier way to describe it is: The secondary master cylinder is a brake lever for the rear.


There is more detail about which pistons do what but it isn't necessary to know that to understand how it works.
 
#4 ·
Thanx OZDave for the lesson. So when you disconnect the LBS, are you doing away with the secondary master cyclinder completely?

Then what does the Proportional control valve do?

The LBS is great on the BIRD in most cases. I live and do alot of riding in the Smoky mtns & Blue Ridge mtns, which means alot of great winding, curvy roads. I personally have found the LBS to be bothersome and sometimes very scary when I do hard rear braking in a curve, especially if the roads are wet. I personally, do not like the sudden slight pull to the left/front braking in curves when I apply the rear brake only. IMO, I feel more comfortable riding these mountain roads when the BIRD'S LBS are de-linked.

"I wonder why other BIRD riders have made the choice to de-link"

 
N
#5 ·
Compact Three-Piston Calipers

Like the system used on the'96 ST1100 ABSII, the CBR1100XX's LBS features a set of three compact three-piston calipers that are controlled by two independent hydraulic systems. The two outer pistons of the front calipers are controlled by the hand brake lever, and the two of the rear are controlled by a servomechanism-actuated secondary master cylinder mounted on the left front fork slider. The center pistons of all three brake calipers are operated directly by the foot brake pedal. Newly developed brake pad linings offer the added benefits of increased grip and improved feel.
Brake Force-Actuated Servomechanism

Like the LBS featured on the CBRIOOOF and ST1100 ABS11, the system's innovative servomechanism uses the rotational torque exerted on the front calipers when engaged to actuate a secondary master cylinder by way of its caliper mount linkage. Now further simplified, the new CBR1100XX's system features a newly designed caliper arm that directly actuates the secondary master cylinder, eliminating most of the linkage pieces of the earlier systems for a lighter assembly and reduced unsprung weight. When actuated by this new caliper arm, the secondary master cylinder applies a corresponding amount of pressure to the outer pistons of the rear brake caliper. This pressure is regulated in three stages of operation by an inline proportional control valve (PVC) for smooth response.
Depending on which brake lever is engaged, this system delivers a broad, yet easily controlled range of braking force while offering the same front brake lever feel as a conventional brake system, yet with a more progressive range of rear brake control for an enhanced balance of braking capability. Because the two systems are independent of each other, both the foot pedal and the hand lever can be used in any combination without resulting in excessive braking force or other unusual responses.
Operation-Enhancing Delay Valve

The system also features a delay valve that smoothes front brake engagement to minimize its associated dive when performing minor speed corrections using only the foot pedal. Positioned between the foot brake's master cylinder and the center pistons of the front brake calipers, the delay valve engages only the left-side front caliper at first, reducing the initial front wheel braking force by nearly half. As pedal pressure increases, the delay valve introduces pressure to the right-side front caliper, which rises to match pressure to the left-side caliper at a preset level.
 
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#6 ·
I personally have found the LBS to be bothersome and sometimes very scary when I do hard rear braking in a curve, especially if the roads are wet. I personally, do not like the sudden slight pull to the left/front braking in curves when I apply the rear brake only.
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Not to criticize your riding technique WOLF, but if you're always hard braking in the corners, you're probably coming in way too hot. Should be braking before and hitting your turn-in off the brakes. (Once again, not trying to bust your chops)

IMO, I feel more comfortable riding these mountain roads when the BIRD'S LBS are de-linked.
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I would say if you are more comfortable de-linked, you should go ahead and do it - but I think you will be disabling a very good system if you do.


"I wonder why other BIRD riders have made the choice to de-link"
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One major reason is so that front brakes aren't engaged by rear pedal when trying to navigate sandy, pebbly, slick roads.
 
#7 ·
I should have been more specific about my braking. But there are many variables involved so I was being a bit broad in explaining how I brake. True, alot of times I come in way to hot. I think I do a good job in using my brakes correctly.........but out here it is sometimes hard to know a new curvy road or what may be in that curve as you are negotiating it. I'm no road racer but do have 28 years of riding experience. I've rode de-linked for most of those years, so you can understand how you can get so used to something.

I guess I just kinda wished there was a switch to turn the LBS on and off depending on the kind of riding you are doing.
 
#8 ·
WOLFCHIEF said:
I should have been more specific about my braking. But there are many variables involved so I was being a bit broad in explaining how I brake. True, alot of times I come in way to hot. I think I do a good job in using my brakes correctly.........but out here it is sometimes hard to know a new curvy road or what may be in that curve as you are negotiating it. I'm no road racer but do have 28 years of riding experience. I've rode de-linked for most of those years, so you can understand how you can get so used to something.
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Yeah, I've got 35 years riding exp, 22 of them on the road and all of it before the XX was de-linked.

I guess I just kinda wished there was a switch to turn the LBS on and off depending on the kind of riding you are doing.
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That would be the best of both worlds wouldn't it??
 
#16 ·
Waiting a while longer this time of year is not a problem. I did find a shop in the UK www.jawsmotorcycles.com that carries a de-linking kit w/SS Braided lines for $212. They have a lot of great Blackbird aftermarket parts. Just click on their logo to enter the site, then click on the Honda Blackbird page.

I'm still undecided on whether to keep the LBS or de-link.
 
W
#17 ·
WOLFCHIEF said:
I'm still undecided on whether to keep the LBS or de-link.
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I would keep the LBS system.

I did the massive Spiegler SS Brake line Group Buy in 2005.... It was an 9-line kit. It worked out quite well for owners who knew what the fuck they were doing around a bike chassis. Sadly, we had some Group Buy players with 10-thumbs try to install these kits, dicked up one or more aspects about it, and then wailed on the forum that it was a bad deal. :rolleyes:

Yes, another SS Brake Line Group Buy will be happening either late this month, or more likely, early March. So you can buy now if you can't wait.... but don't kick yourself too hard when you see the prices on the Group Buy.... :smilebig:

Here's a couple detailed photos from the Spiegler gig in early 2005:


Right Caliper with "smoke" (carbon fiber-look) SS lines, titanium-anodized fittings, black-anodized banjo bolts:

View attachment 1472


Left caliper, all lines installed.

View attachment 1473


Fitting orientation and routing path of the two rear caliper lines. One of the wailers fucked up this portion, and then went crying to the forum, putting a scare into everyone else. This isn't a job for amateurs by any means.

View attachment 1474


Close-up of right caliper fittings... pretty sweet! :thumb:

View attachment 1475


Shot of the Spiegler lines, ABM rotors, and titanium pinch bolts:

View attachment 1476
 
#18 ·
Great pics Warchild!!! Hand me a bare frame KZ-900/1000 with a torn down motor and a buckets of parts, nuts and bolts & I can slap it all back together blind-folded. But give me these SS braided lines and I will have my mechanic friend put them on cause he knows his way around these newer sport bikes. I'm not afraid to admit that my knowledge is limited on these new sport bikes/Blackbird. Brakes are important and I want them done right.

How much were these lines back then in the group buy? Did you have your choice of colors for the anodized fittings and banjo bolts?

Nice wave rotors. Did you notice a big difference over the factory ones?
 
W
#19 ·
WOLFCHIEF said:
How much were these lines back then in the group buy? Did you have your choice of colors for the anodized fittings and banjo bolts?
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Yep, we had all manner of line, fitting, and banjo bolt colors. You could mix/match any combination you wanted.

Re: prices. This was perhaps still the most smoking GB deal I ever pulled off. The 9-line Spiegler SS brake line kit for the Blackbird normally retails for $439.95.

Our Group Buy cost was only $254.00 :thumb:

This Spiegler GB was one I actually combined with the FJR forum. I still have the old GB web site up on my FJRTech.com if you want to see the particular deal we had: Spiegler Group Buy - Spring, 2005

WOLFCHIEF said:
Nice wave rotors. Did you notice a big difference over the factory ones?
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For me, the ABM rotors give a lot more initial "bite", and the seem to run noticeably cooler than the stamped steel rotors that come from the factory. The rotor's internal slots and cutouts are unbelievably razor-sharp... they continually scrape the surface of the brake pad as they pass through, providing a fresh surface for the next portion of solid rotor material to bite against.

I've never had any hint of brake fade with the ABM rotors during some very brutal triple-digit running through the Basins and Ranges of the Nevada desert. I like 'em.
 
S
#24 ·
rodantking said:
Leave the LBS how much rear brake can you get away with anyway if the throttle is off in a corner with out it stepping out on you on a bike this big?
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All depends on lean angle, speed, contact patch, road surface and how much further behind your guardian angel is flying. In short, you have a traction budget at the rear. If 100% of your budget is in use for keeping the wheel from slipping under cornering force, you can't use any brake. Less of the former means you can apply more of the latter.

IMHO, you shouldn't be on the rear brake at any time during a corner. At least not on the street. Before the turn? Certainly. At the turn in to "back it in" a bit? OK if you have the ballz/skillz. Once leaned over and carving for the apex? Not a really good idea. Far better just to lean it more, hope you get through without grounding anything hard and unloading a tire and next time do a better job of setting your entry speed and body position.
 
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