Advise Me - Track Bikes

MrBadExxample · 11-03-2006, 4:15 PM

I'm thinking of getting my first track bike. It might be a dedicated track bike, or I might use it on the street as well.

Here's some of my criteria:

1. Cheap, ideally under $2000, so something with a rebuilt/salvage title is fine.

2. Cosmetic condition is irrelevant. I plan to wreck it, although the exact date and place of the wreck is unknown.

3. Cheap/Easy to fix and maintain. Parts should readily available and cheap, so nothing exotic.

4. Forgiving - Bike should tolerate a rider with shitty track skills.

Notice that fast and powerful are not necessary. I need something that will be cheap and easy to learn with. Thus far I am thinking about an SV650S, GSXR600, TL1000R or TL1000S.

Thank You

bartonmd · 11-03-2006, 5:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBadExxample

I'm thinking of getting my first track bike. It might be a dedicated track bike, or I might use it on the street as well.

Here's some of my criteria:

1. Cheap, ideally under $2000, so something with a rebuilt/salvage title is fine.

2. Cosmetic condition is irrelevant. I plan to wreck it, although the exact date and place of the wreck is unknown.

3. Cheap/Easy to fix and maintain. Parts should readily available and cheap, so nothing exotic.

4. Forgiving - Bike should tolerate a rider with shitty track skills.

Notice that fast and powerful are not necessary. I need something that will be cheap and easy to learn with. Thus far I am thinking about an SV650S, GSXR600, TL1000R or TL1000S.

Thank You

Not having a track bike myself, I have heard that the previous gen of GSXR600 is a good track bike, as well as the SV bikes. Parts are PLENTIFUL for both, because there are so many of them around, and a lot of squids wreck their gixxers without too many miles on them...

I've also heard that the F3's are pretty good (and cheap) as well as the F4's and F4i's... I'd personally look for any reasonably late model 600cc SS bike...

Mike

BDAZXX · 11-03-2006, 5:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBadExxample

I'm thinking of getting my first track bike. It might be a dedicated track bike, or I might use it on the street as well.

Here's some of my criteria:

1. Cheap, ideally under $2000, so something with a rebuilt/salvage title is fine.

2. Cosmetic condition is irrelevant. I plan to wreck it, although the exact date and place of the wreck is unknown.

3. Cheap/Easy to fix and maintain. Parts should readily available and cheap, so nothing exotic.

4. Forgiving - Bike should tolerate a rider with shitty track skills.

Notice that fast and powerful are not necessary. I need something that will be cheap and easy to learn with. Thus far I am thinking about an SV650S, GSXR600, TL1000R or TL1000S.

Thank You

If your serious about learning or bettering your riding skill get yourself an SV650. The bikes are inexpensive, indestructable and pleantiful. Check out the WERA board its mainly a southeastern club but does run out west sometimes. You can beat it for several years if you want and its very user friendly. I have a buddy that absolutely rails on his. He kicks my ass and I run the the RC against him.

jcrich · 11-03-2006, 9:09 PM

Aren't you a little young to be playing on the track?
As Randy said an SV650 is an awesome track bike.

Dion · 11-04-2006, 2:25 AM

Lot's of options. Under 2k is gonna be an older bike and/or definately track only.

You won't find a TL ot TS in that range yet unless it's REAL rough and you're talking a bout a bike similar in weight to the bird.

Like has been said look for something in a 600 size. It's all about coner speed and you'll learn more and have the satisfaction of eating a new liter bike on a ratty 600. Of course then you'll get your ass handed to you by some guy on a 250 smoker but then you can track him down and ask for pointers

Put your money into brakes suspension and tires. Forget about performance mods for a while.

JRA · 11-05-2006, 10:27 AM

Hey Matthew, you didn't really mention the other day that you were looking in the two thousand range. I just don't think you are going to be able to find anything decent in that range.

The SV is a great bike, but after a while you might feel limited by it's much lower top speed. As I said the other day, it's not a good feeling getting passed by a liter bike on a long straight, and VIR's front straight is very fast (which you said is a track close to you). The bike is very forgiving though, and with a good rider, it can be just as fast as the big bikes on smaller tracks, but on faster tracks I've consistently been four to six seconds slower on the SV than on my 600. Two things that really need improvement on the SV are brakes and suspension. You can help the brakes out a lot by installing some really good, high end race pads like the Vesrah's. Most track bikes will already have SS brake lines, but that's a must do if you don't get them with any bike you buy. An even better alternative would be to install 01'-'03 gixxer 600 brake calipers on the bike. There are adapter brackets made for this, and that would give you the much better stopping power of the four piston calipers as opposed to the weak two piston stock calipers.

The other thing that's a must do is the suspension. The SV is a wallowing pogo stick on the stock stuff. Emulators and a good after market shock will fix this right up. Don't skimp here, it's very important to have it set up for weight and experience. You'll learn more, go faster, and have more confidence. Most SV race/track bikes will already have this done, but after you get a bike, have the suspension serviced to make sure that it's fresh, and the springs are right for your weight.

The forks on the '99-'01 SV's are not adjustable for preload. You can have the adjustable fork caps from the 2002 model installed when you have the forks serviced. It's important to be able to fine tune your preload so that you can get your sag set properly. It's also important to get the proper weight oil in the forks since this is the only way that you can adjust damping. Any reputable suspension tuner will have had loads of experience with SV's and can tune the forks to your needs easily.

I took a look at the ad on NESBA that you sent me the link to. It doesn't appear to have the emulators, but this '02 does have the adjustable fork caps. That bike also has a shock from a Kawasaki. That's a compromise at best. It's spring is sized to work through the Kawasaki linkage which I would expect to be quite different that the Suzuki linkage. I also don't know how that has affected the ride height of the bike, but I'm pretty sure you can't adjust the length on that shock. Getting the right geometry is important for fast riding. If the bike sits too low in the rear it won't turn well, and if it sits to high it will want to fall into turns and it's more likely to tuck the front while trail braking. It's also usefull to have the ride height adjustability so that you can switch to a 120/70 front tire (120/60 is stock). The 120/70 is so much better on the track. It turns better and feels better, plus it has rounder profile which gives you more rubber at full lean. The downside is it raises the ride height in the front. That's where the adjustable length shock comes in handy, so that you can raise the rear to match.

I just got through building Lesley a (new to her) 2002 SV track bike. Instead of emulators, I installed a complete GSXR 600 front end. This gave me the fully adjustable cartridge fork from the GSXR and the GSXR brake calipers and larger rotors. I also installed a radial master cylinder to aid braking even more. It has a double adjustable Penske rear shock to finish out the suspension(That's me riding the new SV at VIR Patriot in my avatar). It's a pretty trick SV, and handles extremely well.

If you were to go with a 600 I'm with bartonmd. The 2002-2003 GSXR 600's are hard to beat for performance and price. That's what I ride and I can give you a ton of information on those bikes as well. There are a lot of them out there right now for $4000 and less, fully set up with suspension front and rear; the advice about servicing it still holds though. They are plenty fast enough for even the most experienced riders, yet are still very forgiving if you make a mistake. You have to learn to shift well and gear it properly, but once you do they will eat liter bikes for lunch most of the time. The exception would be on the long straights, but the speed difference isn't as large, and I can kill them on the brakes in the next turn. If you plan on sticking with track days, this bike may serve you better.

I would stay away from the TL's. They are fast, but they are also heavy,have a very funky rear suspension set up, and won't be very forgiving of newbie mistakes. Plus they will be a lot more expensive than either the SV or GSXR.

I know this was long, but I hope it helps.

jcrich · 11-05-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRA

Hey Matthew, you didn't really mention the other day that you were looking in the two thousand range. I just don't think you are going to be able to find anything decent in that range.

The SV is a great bike, but after a while you might feel limited by it's much lower top speed. As I said the other day, it's not a good feeling getting passed by a liter bike on a long straight, and VIR's front straight is very fast (which you said is a track close to you). The bike is very forgiving though, and with a good rider, it can be just as fast as the big bikes on smaller tracks, but on faster tracks I've consistently been four to six seconds slower on the SV than on my 600. Two things that really need improvement on the SV are brakes and suspension. You can help the brakes out a lot by installing some really good, high end race pads like the Vesrah's. Most track bikes will already have SS brake lines, but that's a must do if you don't get them with any bike you buy. An even better alternative would be to install 01'-'03 gixxer 600 brake calipers on the bike. There are adapter brackets made for this, and that would give you the much better stopping power of the four piston calipers as opposed to the weak two piston stock calipers.

The other thing that's a must do is the suspension. The SV is a wallowing pogo stick on the stock stuff. Emulators and a good after market shock will fix this right up. Don't skimp here, it's very important to have it set up for weight and experience. You'll learn more, go faster, and have more confidence. Most SV race/track bikes will already have this done, but after you get a bike, have the suspension serviced to make sure that it's fresh, and the springs are right for your weight.

The forks on the '99-'01 SV's are not adjustable for preload. You can have the adjustable fork caps from the 2002 model installed when you have the forks serviced. It's important to be able to fine tune your preload so that you can get your sag set properly. It's also important to get the proper weight oil in the forks since this is the only way that you can adjust damping. Any reputable suspension tuner will have had loads of experience with SV's and can tune the forks to your needs easily.

I took a look at the ad on NESBA that you sent me the link to. It doesn't appear to have the emulators, but this '02 does have the adjustable fork caps. That bike also has a shock from a Kawasaki. That's a compromise at best. It's spring is sized to work through the Kawasaki linkage which I would expect to be quite different that the Suzuki linkage. I also don't know how that has affected the ride height of the bike, but I'm pretty sure you can't adjust the length on that shock. Getting the right geometry is important for fast riding. If the bike sits too low in the rear it won't turn well, and if it sits to high it will want to fall into turns and it's more likely to tuck the front while trail braking. It's also usefull to have the ride height adjustability so that you can switch to a 120/70 front tire (120/60 is stock). The 120/70 is so much better on the track. It turns better and feels better, plus it has rounder profile which gives you more rubber at full lean. The downside is it raises the ride height in the front. That's where the adjustable length shock comes in handy, so that you can raise the rear to match.

I just got through building Lesley a (new to her) 2002 SV track bike. Instead of emulators, I installed a complete GSXR 600 front end. This gave me the fully adjustable cartridge fork from the GSXR and the GSXR brake calipers and larger rotors. I also installed a radial master cylinder to aid braking even more. It has a double adjustable Penske rear shock to finish out the suspension(That's me riding the new SV at VIR Patriot in my avatar). It's a pretty trick SV, and handles extremely well.

If you were to go with a 600 I'm with bartonmd. The 2002-2003 GSXR 600's are hard to beat for performance and price. That's what I ride and I can give you a ton of information on those bikes as well. There are a lot of them out there right now for $4000 and less, fully set up with suspension front and rear; the advice about servicing it still holds though. They are plenty fast enough for even the most experienced riders, yet are still very forgiving if you make a mistake. You have to learn to shift well and gear it properly, but once you do they will eat liter bikes for lunch most of the time. The exception would be on the long straights, but the speed difference isn't as large, and I can kill them on the brakes in the next turn. If you plan on sticking with track days, this bike may serve you better.

I would stay away from the TL's. They are fast, but they are also heavy,have a very funky rear suspension set up, and won't be very forgiving of newbie mistakes. Plus they will be a lot more expensive than either the SV or GSXR.

I know this was long, but I hope it helps.

This man has single-handedly caused a decrease in my revenue stream in this arena.

JRA · 11-05-2006, 1:06 PM

Wait'll you start buying race tires.

tomek · 11-05-2006, 1:49 PM

Hello everyone.

Lots of good advice,I would like to add couple things.

It is much better from $$$ point of view to buy already built track bike /race bike instead of doing on your own.All those bits( suspension parts,brakes,brake lines,ergonomics.ets) can bring final bill to high level.I understand that building is a large part of fun but I feel that it has to be pointed out.

Sv will be easier on rear tires then inline four.

I`m not so sure about late model gixxer 600 ,valvetrain is not durable,they tent to drop valves after certain period of beating crap out of them (A.K.A track riding),I would go with R6 if I were looking for inexpensive inline four for the track.

Check out RoadracingWorld.com // Roadracing World Magazine // Motorcycle Roadracing Daily News for used track bikes.

smoothmotion · 11-05-2006, 2:16 PM

My son races a cbr600 05 and he is constantly upgrading his bike. One of his tricks it to get to know the guys at the track, a lot of them are constantly buying the latest and greatest items so he picks up things hardly used but new to him for a song.
He started with a wrecked bike he picked up in NH, trailered it to Nova Scotia and races it. There are some good deals out there, his bike only had l,500 km on it.

BDAZXX · 11-05-2006, 2:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRA

Wait'll you start buying race tires.

LOL, awww man they dont even know!

This addiction is more expensive than drugs and gives you a long lasting hgh and worth every cent.

MrBadExxample · 11-05-2006, 2:23 PM

Thanks For the info everyone, especially JRA. It's new aspect of motorcycling to me so I appreciate being able to build on y'alls experience.

I agree $2000 is probably not enough for a track bike. Perhaps enough to get a salvage 600cc something, then I figure on another $1000 - $1500 for suspension and braking upgrades. Fortunately there's an ample supply of wrecked sportbikes. Fortunate for me that is. Bad for the person who wrecked it. Or I'll spend $3K-$4k on a bike that's already a track bike, and let the previous owner eat the depreciation cost of the upgrades.

Dion - as far as eating a liter bike in the corners, I look forward to that day, but it's a long way off.

JRA · 11-05-2006, 3:39 PM

There are lots of bikes in the high $3k to low $4k range that are ready to go. Just service the suspenion/swap springs and you're ready to roll. Most will come with at least some spares too. A nice 2001-2002 SV is going to run close to what a decent 2001-2002 GSXR 600 will cost so that shouldn't be too big of a consideration. One of the nice things about the GSXR's is that many of the parts are interchangeable between 600, 750, and 1000. Lots of parts available if you need them. Top end issues aside, the GSXR's make really good track bikes, but really, any 600 (if you decide to go that route) would be a good choice.

jcrich · 11-05-2006, 3:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRA

Wait'll you start buying race tires.

It has already started, picked up a set of Pro's off of Meff yesterday.

JRA · 11-05-2006, 6:16 PM

Do you need them mounted before we go?

jcrich · 11-05-2006, 6:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRA

Do you need them mounted before we go?

Nah, I will run the Corsa's to start. I will bring them along though.

BDAZXX · 11-05-2006, 7:24 PM

The only 600 I've ridden at the track was an 02 gsxr and man was it a blast. They are so light compared to the fat pig I ride, it was like riding a bicycle.

Are you guys running slicks or DOTs? This last season I raced on Michelin PR for the simple fact I can use them on the street bikes once there to shagged for the track and get the last bit of us out of them. I think this next season I might run slicks. There alittle more expensive but alot stickier and last longer at speed, on track.

jcrich · 11-05-2006, 9:03 PM

John runs the Pirelli Dragon SuperCorsa Pros which I guess are the equivalents to the Michelin PRs, DOT tires. I have a set of Pirell Diablo Corsas on mine. I bought a set of the Pros from a friend of ours that had some extra sets as he is done on the track for the year.

BDAZXX · 11-05-2006, 9:35 PM

I like Pirellis, I ran them the last 3 season. I switched to back to Michelins this year and love'm! Great mileage/wear and sticky, icky, icky.

tomek · 11-05-2006, 10:34 PM

I run Michelin slick 1200s in the front and 1800 s in the rear.They both are soft compound.I used to run 1800 dt ( medium hard) but it would spin too much at the exit.

That front tire has unreal grip pretty much everywhere in the corner,but it got killed in two sessions with track temps in 140 range.Maybe harder comp. would work better in those temps.

Rear grips well,and has very easy slide, but it only comes with 180/55 size,I could use something like 190/70 to cope with liter bike hp.

Anyway, they are predictable tires,I get usually 2 days from front and rear.

If you don`t have tire warmers,patience is needed ,not much grip in the first lap or two.

It is funny, but by just going to softer rear compound I had to rebalance bike handling,it was pushing at the corner exits.

BDAZXX · 11-05-2006, 10:44 PM

I've been told the slick slides real predictably. Is that your experience?

tomek · 11-06-2006, 11:52 PM

Yes they are very predictable.They have a "oily" slides,like when riding in the mud when transition from slide to "full" grip is very smooth,none of that nasty slide/catch wobble.

SGTSkiXX · 11-09-2006, 10:26 AM

I'm surprised no one mentioned the good old FZR600R or FZR400R two great little bikes very forgiving cheap ($1500 for a nice one is not unheard of rough ones half the price) as dirt and millions of parts on ebay everyday. Great handling little bike with very little work and reasonable power. If you want to check into these bikes check out The FZR Archives

Pacman · 11-25-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dion

Lot's of options. Under 2k is gonna be an older bike and/or definately track only.

Under $2k? Good luck !! At least in my neck of the woods....

I don't think you'll find anything worth riding on the track. With a little luck and patience MAYBE an early 90s CBR or FZR..... Let me rephrase that. With A LOT of luck.

First thing you'll have to make sure is suspension is set up right. Or you WILL wreck it in short order.

PS: I'm thinking I'll be selling the 944 SS SP next Spring...