Countersteering

arcticflipper · 12-20-2006, 5:25 AM

Ok so after a nice long weekend down in Eastern Transvaal with a goup of 33 bikes, majority was XX's. I found that the XX doesn't really like to be countersteered.

Is this normal?

I found while riding hrd through tight and sweeping turns that when ever I countersteered the XX it would get a bit upset with me, and the rear would tend to shake slightly. I do have a problem with the suspension, but this is just a general question.

I did ride a couple of other XX's, and they all had the same feeling.

RedMick · 12-20-2006, 6:46 AM

No problem with mine, perhaps it's too warm down there?

arcticflipper · 12-20-2006, 6:48 AM

I have to say that all of them had OEM suspension, except mine. I've done the front with Wilbers springs and K-tech valving, and 5 weight oil.

Perhaps it's my riding style?

RedMick · 12-20-2006, 6:52 AM

Well I've probably owned a dozen different bikes over the years and I've never had any problem with them with regard to countersteering. Loaded with passenger + luggage, or solo.

OZDave · 12-20-2006, 7:28 AM

No problems here either?

iXXion · 12-20-2006, 7:58 AM

How have you been changing direction previously?

I don't know of any motorcycle that doesn't steer by "countersteering."

PJNXX · 12-20-2006, 8:28 AM

Sounds to me like your suspension needs to be dialed in to suit your weight and riding style. I do not experience these symptoms with my BB.

shovelstrokeed · 12-20-2006, 9:34 AM

Contersteering is the only way bikes steer. Yeah, you can do some swerving and handle gentle curves by shifting your weight around but, without pressure on the bars, the bike just won't turn and won't be very controlable if you do get it to turn.

The 'bird is actually very responsive to proper application of steering inputs. It is also sensitive to body placement.

BTW, if you haven't fixed your overtight steering head bearings, I don't suggest you attempt any more high speed runs.

Try this, as you approach a curve or turn, shift your upper body to the inside of the turn and down at the same time. Keep your butt more or less centered on the seat for now, you might want to slide back a bit. Your forearms should be more or less parallel to the ground at this point with your head somewhere over the inside grip. As you reach the turn-in point, apply a steady pressure to the inside bar and, at the same time, press down and in with your inside foot (ball of foot on the peg). When the bike reaches the desired lean angle for the curve you wish to carve, RELEASE ALL PRESSURE ON BOTH BARS, don't push or pull on either bar. It greatly helps to be rolling on a little throttle as well. First off, throttle will raise the suspension and allow it to move more freely, secondly, it will maintain your speed as the tire loses radius as you get it on its side. This is sometimes called neutral throttle as you are neither slowing nor accelerating through the arc. When you reach the apex and the turn starts to open up, you can apply some more throttle to begin the acceleration out of the corner. You may need a light push on the outside bar to help straighten the bike up as it follows the arc of the turn.

If you are doing anything else, you are not countersteering the bike. It is likely that you are cross-controlling which can really upset the bike. Cross controlling usually involves pressure on the outside bar to limit lean angle and that is what really upsets the bike in a corner as the pressure on the bar limits the bikes ability to carve its own way around the turn.

arcticflipper · 12-20-2006, 10:46 AM

Thanks for the info, very nice info.

Now I'm actually wondering if I'm not doing the latter?

Will check tonight on my way home from work. Might be able to give some better feedback.

DanS · 12-20-2006, 12:43 PM

Get the book called "Total Control"!.. It has helped me immensely. Without counter-steering you really can't control the motorcycle very well. One of the harder things to do with countersteering is to not let one hand fight the other. If you are turning left into a curve, push with your left arm, and concentrate on relaxing your right arm. Don't let it fight your left arm or you will have a problem.

smoothmotion · 12-20-2006, 3:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed

Contersteering is the only way bikes steer. Yeah, you can do some swerving and handle gentle curves by shifting your weight around but, without pressure on the bars, the bike just won't turn and won't be very controlable if you do get it to turn.

The 'bird is actually very responsive to proper application of steering inputs. It is also sensitive to body placement.

BTW, if you haven't fixed your overtight steering head bearings, I don't suggest you attempt any more high speed runs.

Try this, as you approach a curve or turn, shift your upper body to the inside of the turn and down at the same time. Keep your butt more or less centered on the seat for now, you might want to slide back a bit. Your forearms should be more or less parallel to the ground at this point with your head somewhere over the inside grip. As you reach the turn-in point, apply a steady pressure to the inside bar and, at the same time, press down and in with your inside foot (ball of foot on the peg). When the bike reaches the desired lean angle for the curve you wish to carve, RELEASE ALL PRESSURE ON BOTH BARS, don't push or pull on either bar. It greatly helps to be rolling on a little throttle as well. First off, throttle will raise the suspension and allow it to move more freely, secondly, it will maintain your speed as the tire loses radius as you get it on its side. This is sometimes called neutral throttle as you are neither slowing nor accelerating through the arc. When you reach the apex and the turn starts to open up, you can apply some more throttle to begin the acceleration out of the corner. You may need a light push on the outside bar to help straighten the bike up as it follows the arc of the turn.

If you are doing anything else, you are not countersteering the bike. It is likely that you are cross-controlling which can really upset the bike. Cross controlling usually involves pressure on the outside bar to limit lean angle and that is what really upsets the bike in a corner as the pressure on the bar limits the bikes ability to carve its own way around the turn.

Bingo!
Very well said.

Coggy · 12-20-2006, 6:12 PM

Mine countersteers OK
I tend to shift my weight by leaning to the inside of the corners, and moving half a butt cheek off the saddle too
The bike seems to like it better...

arcticflipper · 12-21-2006, 2:19 AM

ok so I actually really focused on finding out what I do and how.
I came to the conclusion that I might push to hard when countersteering.

Is this possible?

shovelstrokeed · 12-21-2006, 4:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcticflipper

ok so I actually really focused on finding out what I do and how.
I came to the conclusion that I might push to hard when countersteering.

Is this possible?

Yes, it is possible, especially if you are trying to balance your too hard push by pressing on the other bar. The end result is you are pushing on both bars and fighting the bike and yourself. This is the classic definition of cross controlling. In terms of steering and its effect on the bike it is a really bad thing. You are sending two inputs into the chassis, one to go left and the other to go right.

It takes very little force at all to convince the bike to start leaning. It is the duration of the force that determines lean angle, NOT THE AMOUNT. For others reading this, yes, I know, the amount is somewhat dependent on how fast your are going but we are talking the difference between maybe one and three pounds.

Try this, preferably on a deserted road or large, empty car park. Ride along at some moderate speed (60 kph) and let go of the bar with your left hand. Notice that you need no steering input at all to keep the bike in a straight line. If your weight is centered and your wheels aligned, the bike will want to go straight all by itself. Now, give a gentle push on the right grip for about 1/4 second and then release the push but make sure you don't pull back. You'll find the bike is now making a right hand curve and will continue to do so until you make a correcting push on the other bar. Note also that you have to apply a tiny bit of throttle to maintain speed.

OK, now repeat that a couple of times and note how little pressure it takes to initiate a turn and do it until you can consistantly reach the same lean angle. It doesn't have to be much lean, just keep aware of how long a push (and how little force it takes) to acheive the same lean. Once you have this down, and are able to get the bike carving a nice smooth arc with no pressure on the bars, repeat, but this time, push for a little longer. Not harder, just longer.

Hmmmm, the bike leaned a bit further didn't it? More lean = sharper turn. You didn't cheat and catch the lean with the other bar did you? That's a no-no. Now start adding that upper body position I spoke about in the earlier post. Notice that it takes less duration of the push to initiate the lean and it is easier to maintain the lean angle without correction. They work together, all of it. Body position, foot peg pressure and gentle push and release on the bar.

Don't expect this all to come together in an hour or even a day. It takes time to unlearn old habits and groove new ones. There are three distinct inputs you are dealing with, each effects the other and it takes awhile to get smooth and learn how much of each of the inputs to use for a given corner. BTW, don't forget those feet. The downward pressure on the pegs lightens your weight on the saddle, lowering the overall c.g. of the bike and allowing the bike to move under you, letting the suspension do its job. Keeping your butt light on the seat makes it easy to move your upper body into the proper position which lessens the pressure and duration you need to apply to the bars to create a given lean angle.

Dion · 12-27-2006, 1:48 PM

Quote:

Hmmmm, the bike leaned a bit further didn't it? More lean = sharper turn. You didn't cheat and catch the lean with the other bar did you? That's a no-no. Now start adding that upper body position I spoke about in the earlier post. Notice that it takes less duration of the push to initiate the lean and it is easier to maintain the lean angle without correction. They work together, all of it. Body position, foot peg pressure and gentle push and release on the bar.

Just a couple comments on this, More lean = sharper turn OR same turn at a higher speed.

The purpose of shifting you body weight is to move your center of gravity lower and to the inside of the turn. this allows you to use less lean angle for the same turn at any given speed and helps to counter the effect of centrifical force. Body shift is not part of intiating the turn but preparing for it and you DO NOT, want to shift your body at lean.

Leave the body shift out of the pratice for now and practice the counter steering at lower speeds and make sure you are not supporting yourself with the bars, Hold on with your knees and support yourself with your back. Your elbows should be loose and able to flap like a bird in the turn. This way the only inputs to the bars are deliberate and not from bumps or fighting yourself. Play in the corner, make small bar inputs to see how you can change your line mid-corner if needed.

Practice the body shift with the bike on stands. Hover your hands over the grips but don't touch them. Get your head down like you're trying to look throught the mirror. Then using just you legs and back move you body sideways back and forth on the seat. Hold the tank with your outside knee and keep your hips and shoulders square with the bike. you don't want to twist in the seat or twist your shoulders. Once you comfortable doing this go practice under power. you should be able to go in a straight line and go back and forth from one side the other without causing the bike to turn.

Now go try it in a turn. You'll notice that at the same speeds you were going before you leaning the bike less and letting it do the work underneath you.

my$.02

John01XX · 12-27-2006, 2:05 PM

Good description Dion. I will practice that on the way home today.

Makes alot of sense, thanks