Solved - 2005 Blackbird, surging @ 2 - 3k - rough running, fuel, plugs? help!!

Gareth60 · 06-08-2008, 5:39 PM

Hi all.

Hello and welcome

from Sunny UK (well it is currently

)

I purchased a 2005 Blackbird in April after p/x'ing my 2006 CBR 600F. I would never thought of owning a Blackbird until I rode one and I’m very pleased.

Anyway, I have a strange problem that I’m hoping someone can help with.

I'm aware of the overheating issue that I have read everywhere, but I think this is different.

I don’t think my Bird is running properly. It's difficult to describe, but I call it a "surging" or running rough. To better explain, when the bike is cold it runs lovely, but after 15 odd minutes of riding, I’m guessing when the cold start is now off, it surges or hunts. So, when I’m going along at a steady 60 mph at 5000 rpm, I can feel it tugging or surging, i.e. not smooth. (my 600 never run like this). If I sit on the bike with it running and hold it at say 3k, you can see the rev counter moving up and down and not staying at a steady 3k.

Could it be fuelling, spark plugs, blocked injectors? It's covered 10k and in good condition.

It's been in for a service at Honda last week, but they did not find a fault. I guess i need to book it into a specialist, but I would like to check myself first.

I'm concerned as I’m off to France on Friday and it will take away the enjoyment if it is not right.

Any help / advice will be greatfully received.

jsfrv6 · 06-08-2008, 8:16 PM

to the site!

put some seafoam in it. Just follow instructions...

Nutter67 · 06-08-2008, 11:15 PM

G'day from Oz.

How many miles are on it? How many tanks of fuel have you used, and of what grade? I use BP Ultimate exclusively in my 07 and I dont have a problem. I wont go anywhere near Ethanol blended fuels, altho others here have not had a problems using this.

Gareth60 · 06-09-2008, 3:47 AM

Hi,

Yes, I think I will try some injector cleaner, I have not seen "seafoam" here in the UK, but i'll try something simular.

My bike has 10,000 miles on it and I guess since i've had it from April, I guess i've filled it up say 20 times. Mainly 95 octane but currently I have in 98 octane.

Thanks

Leftlaner · 06-09-2008, 4:18 AM

Welcome to the site. Make sure the chain is properly tightened up. Too much backlash will amplify any carburation roughness when pootling around at 60mph.. You say that the bike runs nicely when it's cold, but starts to act up as soon as it gets warmer. It sounds like she's getting a lean mixture. A lean mixture will work nicely on a cold engine, but cause hesitation and roughness once the engine warms up. Could be due to dirty injectors..

Is the bike stock, or has the air filter, ecu (Power Commander?) or exhaust been modified??

Gareth60 · 06-09-2008, 4:55 AM

Hi,

It's completely stock. It also seems less noticable at higher revs. This morning I was in top on the motorway doing 5k rpm and it seemed totally smooth. I then went though town at lower revs , 3k rpm and it was again rough.

Many thanks for your help.
Gareth.

PS. Another thing I was thinking about, my bike is just over 3 years old and had 8k on it when I brought it, so thats about 3k miles a year, which is not a lot. I suspect it may have been standing for sometime.

Nutter67 · 06-09-2008, 5:00 AM

You could try a few tanks of a good injector cleaner, also check air cleaner.

Gareth60 · 06-09-2008, 5:07 AM

It had it's 8k service last week and they checked the air filter and said it was fine. How do I check it myself, is it easy?

thanks
Gareth

Nutter67 · 06-09-2008, 5:43 AM

Prop up the front of the tank, undo the 8(?) screws on top of the airbox and lift out the filter. If it just had its service by a reputable mechanic, then you may disregard this bit.

Gareth60 · 06-09-2008, 5:51 AM

Hi Paul,

Yes, it was serviced by Honda, but i'd like to check anyway.

When you say the front of the tank, do you mean the end near the seat? I removed the two bolts over the weekend and lifted it up slightly, but it was heavy as it had over 1/2 tank of fuel. I can check again tonight and i'll give it a "blat" on the motorway to empty a bit more

. Do I need to remove any fairings? I'm guessing I can just prop it up and have a look, I would also like to see where the plugs and injectors are as well. Also, where is the fuel pump, under the tank?

I think I need a service manual.

Thanks muchly.

Nutter67 · 06-09-2008, 6:11 AM

Undo the two bolts, lift the rear of the tank and pull backwards until rubber bosses at the front are clear of the frame. Place rear of tank back down where it was before, lift the two steel sleeves out from the rubber mounts on the rear of the tank, and put the two bolts back in and screw them in 6-8 turns. Get a piece of wood (or something similar) and use this to prop the front of the tank up. (make sure side covers are not located in tank).

If you need a service manual, get it from here:

Honda CBR 1100XX Service Manual 1999+

Do you have any roads where you can give it a really good (higher speed) run - the longer the better. If you can use a good quality injector cleaner and give the bird a good workout trying to go through the whole tank (using as much throttle as possible). I notice the difference in my engine after doing a track day and "blowing out the cobwebs".

Leftlaner · 06-09-2008, 6:12 AM

Mine's got carburators, so I'm not able to go into details on the fuel system for FI birds. But it still sounds like a fuel issue to me. If you were running carbs, I'd tell you to simply raise the needles a notch

I think your first step would be running some injector cleaner through the system. Have you had your valves checked? They should be just fine, but IF some of the valves were far off spec, I guess the situation might get worse as the engine heats up (metal expands). But in that case you would be able to hear a distinct knocking sound (which your Honda mechanic surely would have picked up)..

Try Seafoam or some other injector cleaner, and let us know the results

Gareth60 · 06-09-2008, 8:39 AM

Guys,

You have been a massive help and I feel at lot more comfortable now.

I will get some injector cleaner on the way home tonight and give it a good blast.

Many thanks.

sjtscott · 07-17-2008, 8:57 AM

Gareth60 did you ever find solution to this at all? I've sent you a PM about this too.

I'm getting pretty much the same behaviour from my recently bought 2006 Blackbird - its covered 7000miles only. I asked the honda dealer who I bought it off who said from 3-3.5k is when the bike switches from the rich to lean or maybe the other way round mode on the ECU and that they all do it for emissions reasons.
I'm also in the uk too, have filled the tank up with 95RON once since I got the bike last sat, it got a long blast back on the M25 and I've no faults with the way it goes at speed. But I ride it round london for commuting so this surging with the engine not holding constant revs even though my throttle hand is is very noticable.

Cheers for any help/feedback you can give.

Scotty
2006 CBR1100XX in two tone silver.

Gareth60 · 07-17-2008, 9:10 AM

Hi Scott,

I must apologise to everyone to not posting back, been a bit busy.

In sort answer, no, I did not fix it.

I went on a trip to France, used a tank of injector cleaner and gave my bike a good spanking . It behaved a lot better, but the problem still exists.

It's interesting that my symptoms exactly match yours and my feeling is that it cannot be right unless everyone else has not noticed and I’m fussy.

I have ordered a Power Commander which should be delivered tomorrow or Friday. I will let you know how I get on.

I too ride in London, I live in North Kent and sometimes ride into our London office and it's a right pain in traffic. But, saying that, I’ve had my bike for almost two months and I’m used to it now.

Talk soon
Gareth.

bullet · 07-17-2008, 10:46 AM

...assuming that you're totally oem on exhausts and air filter...what about throttle body synchronization...?i know your mileage is low...but can your dealer verify that is properly adjusted.?..these are also symptoms of a nearly "dead" O2 exhaust sensor if followed by weird fuel mileage.....

sjtscott · 07-17-2008, 12:24 PM

Bullet - Bike is 100% stock, only ever serviced by the same dealer I bought it off. It went through their workshops (I believe) before I picked it up. Problem is dealer isn't that local to me, they warned me that they'd prob find nothing wrong with it if I took it back to them.
What would constitute weird fuel mileage?? I've not used a tank yet even though I'm using it daily to get to/from work.

Gareth really interested to hear your feedback on the power commander once fitted -assuming you have std exhausts? I had a PCIIIUSB on my old CBR600F (traded bike) which leaned everything off on the stock exhaust map and gave another 20miles to a tank on a long journey. Also it had an O2 sensor bypass to get the PC to work as it was a 2002 german model with a cat convertor (uk models didn't have this until later model year). It had 100% spot on smooth fuel injection with this which is why I notice this on the blackbird so much.
I'm suspecting the Blackbird stock exhaust PCIIIUSB map will do something around 3000+revs.. I'll try looking at the map online to see.

Cheers

Gareth60 · 07-17-2008, 1:21 PM

Scotty,

Yes, my bike is stock. I had a 2006 CBR600F which I traded in for the Blackbird and even though that was stock also, the fuel delivery was perfect.

I'll let you know next week hopefully.

What dealer do you use? Just interested.

sjtscott · 07-17-2008, 1:52 PM

Gareth,

Yer 600F perfectly smooth, cool awaiting your PC results with interest.

Dobles, Coulston Surrey, I had a real tough time getting hold of second hand blackbird of the age/price/mileage I wanted. All main honda dealers good ones were going really quickly. I went to Dobles on the off chance a couple of sat ago and they had none on show but they said one was coming in as a trade in. They'd sold 4 or 5 second hand ones that week all fitting my criteria. Deposit down without seeing it, checked it over last week test road and bought!!

Where did you get yours?

I would add I tried the constant throttle test at 5k revs in second on the way home tonight.. on the correct road of course and its way way better.. didn't get much chance to try it for too long due to peak time traffic.

Cheers

ironmike · 07-17-2008, 9:31 PM

I think Left Laner was on to something - your drive chain... Is it original..? Properly adjusted..? Is it well lubed..? Are the o-rings all intact..? Any tight spots..? A wearing and/or out of adjustment chain will sometimes present the symptoms you've articulated; it'll behave one way when it's cold and another when it's warmed up. It can drive you nuts because you'd logically think is gotta be the fuel delivery management... but sometimes it can be a simple matter of adjusting or replacing the chain (if you do replace it, cast a critical eye on your sprockets as well).

Gareth60 · 07-18-2008, 3:31 AM

Hi guys,

For me, it's deffo the engine as I can see the rev counter moving (up and down) and the same happens if I pull the clutch in. I also tried it outside my house on the stand and it happen then also. I did however check the chain over when it was suggested and it all seemed ok.

Scotty, I got mine from Doble too as with you I had a hard time finding a good, low milage one. However, I wont be takling my business back there, but thats a different story.

My local dealer is 21st Moto, Swanley, really nice guys in there, know them well.

Looking back, I wish I had brought new.

Gareth.

louisbiker · 07-18-2008, 5:06 AM

This is very interesting as my bike is doing exactly the same thing!

Worst is a 3000-3500rpm in any gear, if i rev it in neutral to the same rpm it is erratic.

The usual stuff:
Totally stock bike, well adjusted chain, new air filter, a couple of bottles of injector cleaner, running 98 for a long time now, 2004, 24000kms

I like the idea of a throttle body sync.

Really love to know if anyone actually solves this issue.

I'm really surprised that no one has come across this before.

Gareth60 · 07-18-2008, 5:19 AM

Looks like i've opened a can of worms

Quote:

Originally Posted by louisbiker

I like the idea of a throttle body sync.

What does this entail? I thought throttle bodies were just for cab models, but I could be very wrong.

Gareth.