Can't start intermittently????

trkracer · 12-01-2007, 10:34 AM

O.k, I don't know what's going with this or even where to start. When I park my bike, I always turn it off first with the kill switch. Sometimes, and it's only started recently, but not always, I'll turn the key, turn the kill switch off (so the engine will start), hit the starter and nothing happens. I do not hear the fuel pump during this time. Then, after a little while, I hear the fuel pump start up and it'll start. The worst was when I went on leave for 2 weeks back to the States and tried to start it when I got back. It was literally 3-4 minutes with the key turned and kill switch off before I heard the fuel pump kick on and I could start it. I rode today for about an 2 hours, we stopped and then it didn't start for about 15 seconds or so after I turned the kill switch off. Anybody have any idea why this is and what I can do about it? The bike is a US California model 2003 and has 13000 miles on it. I've had her a little over a year now. Everything is stock. Thanks! John

flblackbird · 12-01-2007, 11:16 AM

Sounds like it's a loose\bad wire in the switch itself. Is the batt fully charged?

rivabill · 12-01-2007, 11:21 AM

Hi John
Have you tried turning it off with the key and not the kill switch, what happens then ?
May be the kill switch is playing up.....dirty or worn out contacts !

Try it with the key, if it starts when you turn it back on, you may need another switch, there are always some on the UK ebay site if you cant find one,let me know and i will keep an eye out for you.
I can buy it and ship it out to you, or just give you the link.
Bill

Blackknight · 12-01-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkracer

When I park my bike, I always turn it off first with the kill switch. John

Well, John, Ive been riding bikes for 45 years now and I've always heard that you shouldn't use the kill switch to turn a bike off - they will go bad someway or another. They should only be used when you find yourself going down - although I've been down several times trail riding and never once did I remember to hit them!

Why don't you try leaving it always on and turning the bike off with the key? And, of course, maybe install a new one beforehand.

Cheers.

rivabill · 12-01-2007, 3:56 PM

CBR1100 XX Blackbird 04 Right hand switch unit throttle on eBay, also Honda, Motorcycle Parts, Motorcycle Parts Accessories, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 02-Dec-07 17:15:53 GMT)

CanadianBird · 12-01-2007, 3:59 PM

The Bird does not need to be shut off with the "kill switch", use the key.

trkracer · 12-01-2007, 8:22 PM

I heard, and don't ask where or when - I just remember it for some reason over these past 11 years of riding, that you should always turn it off with the kill switch. Either for "muscle memory" or as an added anti-theft thing. But, now that I think of it, I'm not sure why I got in that habit. Anyways, I'll start using just the key. But, the thing that gets me is that if it was a crappy switch or bad contacts, then moving the switch would help/aggravate it. I had a 1974 CB750 who's kill switch would get dirty and if I turned it on/off a few times, it would get rid of the corrosion enough for it to work. Thing is, with the Blackbird, is that it TAKES NO INTERVENTION. I don't move it or anything. One second no fuel pump sound, a while later, fuel pump sound. Nothing moves. I don't get it. I don't see how using the kill switch would make it go bad - it's a switch just like the ignition switch or the light switch at home and using these doesn't premature shorten their life. The bike's too young and hasn't been in an environment that would induce corrosion (and when it acts up, turning the switch on and off doesn't help any). Oh well, I'll start using just the key and see that if that does anything. I just wonder if the bike does any system check before turning on the fuel pump and maybe the problem lies there. I'm using Italian gas which isn't known as the cleanest stuff on the planet. Thanks all for your advice (and the offer Bill :-) -John

trkracer · 12-01-2007, 9:16 PM

O.k, found out where I got it from - Motorcycle Safety Foundation. They list the proper way to shut down the bike is:

1. Engine Cut Off
2. Ignition
3. Fuel Cut Off

Start up procedure is:
1. Fuel supply
2. Ignition
3. Neutral
4. Engine Cut Off
5. Choke/Clutch

It says its a safety thing because you can turn off the bike without removing your hands from the handlebar. Anyways, that's how I was taught so it's just become second nature

Blackknight · 12-01-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkracer

.... its a safety thing because you can turn off the bike without removing your hands from the handlebar.

So, where's the safety bit in that?

Cheers.

trkracer · 12-02-2007, 12:29 PM

Couldn't really tell ya'. I'm just explaining how I got in the habit of using it constantly. Maybe it has something more to do with safety on the range with a bunch of noobs seeing as it's the Basic Riders Course (accidently letting out the clutch while in gear before turning it off?) I'm in the military, so I have to take the course (that or the ERC) every two years while overseas and every 5 years when back in the States in order to be able to ride on base. They've recently started using the MOST test but I still have another 6 months before I have to take the course again so I haven't tried that alternative. Anyways, that explains why I got in the habit, but I'm still wondering if the bike does any system checks while it's starting up. Being EFI, I wouldn't be surprised if it did. I'm not sold on the bad switch concept. The behavior just isn't the same. I've had a bad switch before on another bike and even though they're 30 years apart, the switch is still the same simple contact (electric on, electric off).

CanadianBird · 12-02-2007, 1:39 PM

I think I had a kill switch on my Harley, and the above procedure was the mehtod taught at the MC school I attended. With Honda, it isn't necessary and I think I even read that somewhere. Maybe, and I don't know, that's the prefered method of shutting down a Duc. You tell me. Cheers.

rivabill · 12-02-2007, 1:40 PM

Have you tried it with just the key yet ?????

Blackknight · 12-02-2007, 6:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkracer

... I'm not sold on the bad switch concept. The behavior just isn't the same. I've had a bad switch before on another bike and even though they're 30 years apart, the switch is still the same simple contact (electric on, electric off).

I've just thought of sth - Does your bike have the HISS anti-theft system? As it works with the key, that could be it.

Cheers.

flblackbird · 12-02-2007, 8:16 PM

The "kill" switch not only puts power to the starter button, but it also sends power thru the R\R to "energize" the fuel pump and "systems check" function. On the newer Birds, that is.

trkracer · 12-03-2007, 1:16 PM

Rivabill - Ha, ha, hold your horses! I didn't ride Sunday, it was grocery day, so today was the first day back riding. I'm only using the key and no hiccups so far, but it's only been started twice and the problem wasn't a regular thing to start with. If I can go a week or two without a problem, then I'd be 100% convinced it's the engine cut-off switch.

Blackknight - Nah, no HISS for me. I've only seen them on Euro bikes. What is it anyways? I don't know why they don't have them on US bikes (or maybe we do but they don't have it marked??? Anyone? Bueller?)

flblackbird - mmmmm, I'm intrigued. You don't happen to know what's involved with the systems check do you?

If, after only using the key to start up/shut down (which by the way is a major pain in the ass when you have a habit of using the cut off switch :-) It just... feels wrong), I have the problem again in the next week or so, I'll hit you all up again as the switch won't be the likely culprit. If I go two weeks with no issues, it must be the cut off switch (that's about 30-40 starts/stops for me - I commute with it as well as ride on the weekends). Either way, I'll let you all know what's up. Thanks again. -John

Banshee · 12-03-2007, 8:26 PM

Honda Integrated Security System ( or something like that). RFID chip in the key, Antenna in the key surround. If, when you turn it on, the system doesn't get a correct response from the key transponder, the ECU won't let the bike start.

FWIW the only time I used the Kill Switch was on my carbed bird with Yoshis. And then it was only on the highway to make the 2ft flames come out of the end of them with the matching "boom" to wake up dozy cagers.

flblackbird · 12-03-2007, 8:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trkracer

flblackbird - mmmmm, I'm intrigued. You don't happen to know what's involved with the systems check do you?

No, I was just reading the wiring diagram. The svc manual didn't go into any detail

.

Blackknight · 12-03-2007, 9:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banshee

Honda Integrated Security System ( or something like that). RFID chip in the key, Antenna in the key surround. If, when you turn it on, the system doesn't get a correct response from the key transponder, the ECU won't let the bike start.

That's right. HISS means that if you lose both keys you'll have to pay for a new set of keys (of course), new ECU, sender unit, tank lock and seat lock...and install at a dealer's after proving to Honda that the bike is really yours. The whole thing comes to about US$2,000 in Europe.

It does make your insurance considerably cheaper, though.

And now there's HISS2 - even safer. But nothing that two strong guys can't beat by lifting the bike onto a pickup truck.

Cheers

rivabill · 12-14-2007, 12:41 AM

Any news yet John ?????

IrishXX · 12-24-2007, 8:03 PM

Got stranded three days ago, 15miles from home, due to dirty contacts in the kill switch!!!

Stopped to meet a friend, came back 15mins or so later, Ignition on, FI light on, no sound from the fuel pump!

Checked fuses, s/s cut off etc, no joy, suspected the kill switch but decided not to tackle it in the dark on the side of the road, anyhow, in the end got the bike home via the back of a van (ohh the shame). An hour's work the following morning and the BB roared into life!

!

So that simple switch can cause trouble if used everyday (mine had 32,000mls on it before it decided to be awkward)